461–470 of 626 posts
Many companies avoid these kind of issues by having a strict experience-based salary scale for all positions. Gender or any other identity factor is then irrelevant if pay is based entirely upon candidate experience, right? Edit: I have no knowledge of how Google handles salary. If anyone knows, feel free to share.
Sounds like a union shop.
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A quick search suggests that only 20% of programmers in general are female, but 30% of Google programmers are female. I'm not certain these numbers are accurate, but if they are, female programmers are over represented at Google. Going by the "logic" of outcomes being the "only holistic measure" this would indicate that Google is biased against male programmers within the context of the pool of available candidates.…
> Yet if we change the scope of our consideration to that of the general population, Google would be biased against females. That would be expecting Google to hire untrained people as programmers, which would be absurd. If we compare with the general population, any bias found wouldn't be at Google, but in the school system, children's entertainment, parenting, or some other group that influences people long before t…
It's interesting how this sort of discussion is actually leading HN to be more of an echo chamber. Most of my female friends in tech completely avoid it now because it seems that discussions that get voted up tend to ignore or belittle their experiences—even if there may be lots of great points and perspectives mixed in. In fact, the only response I noticed explicitly from someone who identified as female was being d…
"Instead many women just avoid HN" - based on a couple of your friends? I am sure lots of people, regardless of gender, avoid HN for a variety of reasons.
No one knows your gender on HN unless you tell them. There's no pictures or even real names to go by. Things get voted up based on merit.
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Roughly 1/3 of the engineers that I've encountered in my ~17 year career have music degrees (and one guy who went to ballet school and later wrote one of the most well-known O'Reilly books). And this is mostly on the ops side.
This seems to also be a running theme among clojurists, and the opening question on most episodes of the cognicast was inspired by this correlation.
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It's only "apples to oranges" if you're willing to beg the entire question. Why is elementary teaching less highly paid than university teaching? Why is nurse practitioning less highly paid than anaesthesiologizing?
Is this really a question? It takes more dedicated study to become an anesthesiologist than an elementary school teacher.
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Let me get this straight: When women are hired less, it's because they're simply not interested. But when men are hired less, it's because they're being discriminated against? I think my hypothesis is simpler: - Women are discriminated against in the industry as a whole - Google actively discriminates in favor of women It's discrimination both times.
Women are discriminated against in the industry as a whole I would expect in 2019, that the industry as a whole discriminates in favor of women, but I'm just a layperson when it comes to that. Do you have citations? - Google actively discriminates in favor of women It's discrimination both times. I agree.
This could even still be true at Google, though I don't have insight into whether or not it is. It seems at least plausible that Google has put systemic biases in place to balance out more diffuse bias among individual humans, but has done too thorough a job.
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It's only "apples to oranges" if you're willing to beg the entire question. Why is elementary teaching less highly paid than university teaching? Why is nurse practitioning less highly paid than anaesthesiologizing?
Amount of training required. I'd be fine with a random anesthesiologist teaching my grade schooler, but I'd hesitate to have a random elementary school teacher giving him anesthesia. Elementary school teaching: a teaching certificate. University professor: PhD, pre-tenure work & published research (Note that there are less-qualified people teaching in universities that are compensated much less.) Nurse practitioner:…
FTFY
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Are you a parent? I ask because I remember saying stuff like this before I had kids. I don't anymore. I've tried to learn not to judge others parenting but hey that's just me. No one, at least that I've seen. Is saying men don't like babies and animals too. There is nothing wrong with that. To assume that you have to like something based on your gender is ignorant. To assume that you can't like what is "stereotypical…
I don't think you're listening to the above poster very well; or giving them the benefit of the doubt. Boys are statistically over prescribed ADD medication in schools because, studies show, teachers are more likely to write them up for being a distraction to class. So, this thread says the daughter is being pushed to like math over animals, yet, you doubt that a son (there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, i…
You are wrong in that my assertion about parenting and that the parent is the best fit to make that call.
Their claim of "If I was a parent of this child..." Is exactly the kind of stuff I'd spout before I had children. And in your comment you completely disregard this point I'm making.
So in a way, you aren't listening to my post very well, or giving me the benefit of the doubt. You don't address many of my points either, but dive right back into gender studies and ADD medication (over prescription of medication is a problem in our society in general).
Final thought.
>there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, infact, females earn higher grades
That is a gender gap, just not one where males are on top.
Edit: I'd also argue that trade schools are under-represented in our current education system, but that's kind of why I think it's up to the parent to make these calls rather than some person on the internet.
> Google, Ms. Emerson said, seemed to be advancing a “flawed and incomplete sense of equality” by making sure men and women receive the same salary This quote would appear to sum up the entire debate, using the term generously. There is a large and vocal minority in society who abuse the word "equality" to mean "more money and power for women". They don't care about equality. They want inequality, but they know they…
>That is not the same as addressing “equity,” she said, which would involve examining the structural hurdles that women face as engineers.
Consider the following situation:
Men get promoted faster than women for similar work. They're seen as more assertive or something. Managers, noting the systemic inequality, take individual action to compensate women fairly for their contributions, despite the failure of the larger system.
The structural hurdle: that women find it more difficult to get promoted, is not addressed. And as a result, they end up paid less for similar work, despite attempts by ground level mangers to address the inequity.
The HN guidelines suggest that you
>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
I think this should apply to articles posted as well.
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Nope, not that, either: the supply of doctors, for instance, is deliberately restricted by the American Medical Association; whereas the supply of elementary teachers is not restricted by the CAEP. Supply and demand are still second-order effects here.
If the supply of doctors is restricted, then you'd expect them to get higher pay, and vice versa with teachers. I agree it is a secondary effect. The cost of training/education required to perform the job is bigger, though it ultimately has the same effect of reducing supply.