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DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

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Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#461

Post by vanche »

kllrnohj wrote: post #346
setr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s main business is hardware, and software that helps sell the hardware. Any revenue from data is likely a seperate, minor stream; and for it to become a significant one, likely requires significant changes in Apple’s operations. Like any other hardware company, they don’t need google’s kind of data collection to make money. But DDG is primarily funded by search, and the search business is funded by ads, which a…

Apple collects and uses data all the time. Their marketing kind of claims they don't, but their privacy policy is very clear that they do. For example they continuously collect GPS position + list of WiFi APs from iPhone users to build their crowd-source'd wifi location database: "To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location da…

I've been seeing comments on HN praising how Apple respects users' privacy etc. Though I have a genuine question: how can we be so confident that Apple follows their claims while their software remain closed-source?

For client-side Google software like Android/Chromium at least we got to fork and remove the evil bits; we have built thriving communities based on that and everyone's got an alternative to Google. In the case of iOS/Safari do we trust Apple-provided binaries solely based on claimed policy / reputation?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#462

Post by tylerl »

mlindner wrote: post #349
bduerst wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Apple shared all their iCloud user data (messages, pics, docs, etc.) and keys with the Chinese government last year. [1] Apple even updated their TOS forcing Chinese users to agree to it or drop service. [2] Google got flak for just considering it with Dragonfly, but Apple actually did it . [1] https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-i…

This is constantly being misreported. No. They. Do. Not. Apple's data is kept on the device and so are the keys. If you enable that data to be put on the cloud (it's an opt-in) then they will also store the key, but otherwise they do not.

Yeah... except actually no.

iMeasage, the one be thing that really matters in this case, encrypts it's chats "end to end" but using keys managed centrally by Apple, regardless of your iCloud sync situation, and manages them in a way that can't inspected by users. If a decrypted copy of all your encrypted chats is being sent to a government sink, there is no way for you to know or prevent it.

China cares about being able to intercept and decrypt your communication, they want to be able to identify and punish political threats. That's a service that Apple CAN provide to the Chinese government for all iPhone customers.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#463

Post by andrepd »

paradoxparalax wrote: post #402
andrepd wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The owners of a commercial search engine say that it's inevitable that a commercial search engine will succumb to evil. Hmmm.

Sorry for the offtopic, but Im interested in natural Language constructs like this way of using Hmmm. after a sentence. First I thought it was something from the Portuguese speakers, after more thinking I see maybe it is common of French speakers. Or maybe is common in the U.S. too, I have been there only few times. I found it very funny, and somewhat familiar. :ps: The wonders of having a search engine at anyone's h…

I think the linguistic term is "interjection". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interjection

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#464

Post by tylerl »

abalone wrote: post #228
bduerst wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Added sources. Apple moved the keys for accessing the data at rest to Chinese servers, which were nationalized by the Chinese government. The Chinese government has access to the users' data at rest and the keys to decrypt it.

This does not affect E2E encrypted data like iMessage. Apple doesn’t have those keys to give.[1] [1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide....

But since key management is out of your control or visibility, Apple can just add another key to your account on behalf of the government. They don't have to disclose the existing keys on your device. This gets them the messages going forward but not the ones from the past. So they'd have to do this for all Chinese customers ahead of time, rather than as a response to an inquiry.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#465

Post by kllrnohj »

kiriakasis wrote: post #421
drewmol wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, Apple sells the default search provider space on their OS to Google for ~9B/year. So, does it really matter if Apple doesn't directly operate their advertising business and instead outsources it?

This says nothing about apple selling user data like google of facebook. We should be more clear in distinguishing various levels of attacks to privacy.

Google doesn't sell user data either, though.

But Apple's privacy policy is very clear that they do share user data and they do use personal information for advertisement purposes: "Apple and its affiliates may share this personal information with each other and use it consistent with this Privacy Policy. They may also combine it with other information to provide and improve our products, services, content, and advertising."

Does Apple collect less data than Google? Almost certainly, Google is crazy good at it. But are they still collecting data and using it for targeted advertising? According to their own privacy policy YES, yes they are. Including tracking people on their websites: "Apple’s websites, online services, interactive applications, email messages, and advertisements may use "cookies" and other technologies such as pixel tags and web beacons. These technologies help us better understand user behavior, tell us which parts of our websites people have visited, and facilitate and measure the effectiveness of advertisements and web searches."

Seriously, just read Apple's privacy policy: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/

It really doesn't match their heavy privacy-first marketing push of late.

And for things like Siri it's hard to imagine that they aren't going to get increasingly creepy on the data collection aspect of things. It's sort of necessary to build out a "real" assistant. Asking things like "What time is my flight?", which is a useful feature, requires it to know when your flight is. Which you probably didn't manually tell it, because that's not very assistant-y, but instead it had to crawl your emails to find it. That ends up being creepy data collection. They could do it purely on-device, but then your homepod can't answer the same question, which breaks the magic. Unless they build some way for the homepod to ask all your other Apple devices. But if all your devices form a collective network that can share data about you between each other is it really "purely local" anymore? And what stops Apple from joining in on that mesh network whenever they want?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#466

Post by convivialdingo »

braum wrote: post #27
ncbrit wrote: post #15

Scroll wheel isn't zooming the map for me.

Apple map sucks on non-MacOS... no idea why DDG chose them unless its prep for acquisition. you can use CTRL+MouseWheel to zoom in/out.

Zoom doesn't work on Sierra w/ Safari for me in any way - only tapping the +/- buttons works.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#467

Post by ucaetano »

2stop wrote: post #381
ucaetano wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple proves that does not have to be the case. By handing over all iCloud data of Chinese users to the Chinese government? You surely must be jesting!

Oh gosh, a company in China follows Chinese law! The outrage! Regardless what your view is, are you seriously suggesting companies should break the laws of the countries they operate in? Before you say: “unjust laws, yes!” Consider what laws Chinese consider unjust, should they be allowed to break them within the US? I would err on the side of: if you don’t agree with the values of a country then don’t offer your ser…

A company decides to do business in China knowing that it means handing over all data on Chinese users to the Chinese government.

This company is:

1) Apple?

2) Google (project Dragonfly)?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#468

Post by lucb1e »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #416
grsmto wrote: post #8

I wish they were explaining why they moved away from Mapbox and OSM in general!

Living in Germany, I've found that OSM embeds in websites are more common for me now while browsing, and to be blunt: they're ugly. The maps themselves are just difficult to visually parse, and unpleasant to look at compared to Google Maps and Apple Maps (which look comparably attractive at a glance). I dunno if that's solvable using a third party OSM service provider or not, but to me it seems like a good enough rea…

As someone used to osm, you can show me my home town on Google maps and I won't recognize it anymore. There is so little detail on the map, it might as well be blank. Osm is fine, it's you who has only trained yourself in using Google maps.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#469

Post by ringshall »

g105b wrote: post #408
Aunche wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with how much DDG's marketing is focused on trashing their competition. They deliberately obfuscate privacy issues to strengthen their narrative. Sure duckduckgo is a good company right now, but that's only because they're small. I doubt they'll stay that way when they capture a significant market share.

Like when Google were little and their actual tagline was "Do No Evil".

The tag line was actually « Don’t be evil ». It was never an official motto afaik.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#470

Post by bduerst »

londons_explore wrote: post #400
bduerst wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not in the statements that you received, it's a reciprocity agreement between retailers and CC companies to share the data by CC # For example, CC companies could give you your itemized purchase history for Macy's on your statement, if they wanted to.

It is my understanding that most stores do not share that data, because they feel it is a significant commercial advantage. Credit card companies have wanted itemized transactions for aaages (it's even part of the protocols they use) for fraud prevention, but very few merchants have agreed.

Not for SMBs, but major retailers share the information keyed of CC# as part of reciprocity agreements, including Amazon.
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