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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#461

Post by saryant »

jzl wrote: post #272
ryandrake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

400 is starting to push into standard deviation territory but 300 (total comp) is absolutely right in the center of the bell curve for a mid-level engineer (not a rock star), from everything I've seen and heard both first and second hand. In the valley, anyway.

That's where I am. I'm pushing $300k total comp at Twitter as a senior SWE out in Colorado.

Before this I was first employee of a startup that eventually sold to Google. Even if I'd stuck around for the acquisition I'd have gotten $0 from my stock options—employee options were wiped out completely. Why put up with that bullshit when a big publicly-traded company will reliably deposit large sums of money into my bank account every quarter and I don't have to work crazy hours?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#462

Post by [deleted] »

dmode wrote: post #114
ryandrake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#463

Post by _m96l »

toephu2 wrote: post #368
dmode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, ye…

> There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however).

None of the companies in top tier tech can afford to pay substantially less than any of its competitors. That's why they're "top tech".

If what you said was true, and FB or Google paid a lot more than say MSFT or AMZN, then all the best senior engineers would eventually leave the latter for the former, and only the bottom talent will retain. Then the latter won't be top tech in any meaningful sense.

In reality, FAANG are grouped together because they pay about the same and can compete with each other for the same level of talent. Other companies are in this category, just not as famous.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#464

Post by dunpeal »

toephu2 wrote: post #434
dmode wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say median. I said it is L5-L6 comp, which doesn't make it a median as I assume most engineers will be in L1-L4 band. That said, it is not an outlier either. And won't be surprised is 20-30% of engineering and PM orgs are making that money. Also, Uber and Airbnb gives RSUs which are not paper money. I am confident that an IPO for both these companies are inevitable.

RSU's in a company that hasn't gone public are not very liquid... not paper money, but definitely not worth face value. Take that value and cut it in half or 1/4.

Still a lot better than stock options in a startup that isn't even close to liquidity.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#465

Post by lossforajob »

rifung wrote: post #426
dmode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

I keep hearing about the FAANG companies and I have to wonder what can I do to make my proactiveness pay off in getting into the running for job interviews? I feel like it's easier to get their attention as a CS student seeking internships than as a self-taught mid-level developer (which I am).

I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they never called me back). Both times, it was from an internal recruiter making first contact with me. But when I try to reach out to them first (applications or LinkedIn), nobody answers.

Are these FAANG companies usually recruiting candidates on the basis of "don't contact us, we'll decide if we want to contact you"? Other than knowing an acquaintance that works in the company I see no other way to get into an interview more quickly.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#466

Post by Chyzwar »

bad_user wrote: post #266
nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

Not that 400K isn't believable, I don't think it's the norm, but being outside of the Bay Area or the US for that matter, I'll buy it. However there's one other area where startups have failed to evolve, doing a worse job than big companies actually and that's accepting remote employees. Big companies have been doing better because at the very least they are opening offices in multiple countries, whereas most of the…

I disagree. There is nothing worse than teams scattered around the world in "Tech Hubs". Big companies have no idea how to run remote teams, they only know how to outsource.

A startup needs to deliver fast and have access to capital. SV, in particular, have most important ingredients - money and talent.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#467

Post by shamino »

jjmorrison wrote: post #398
inimino wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do founders get over 10x early employees? Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant funding comes through) and they have 100x the impact that an early employee does on the success of the company. If an early employee doesn't work out, the founders just replace that pe…

This. It's really only obvious why founders deserve a much larger exit than employees after you've tried to start and run a company. There's plenty of edge cases where it doesn't feel fair, but in general, starting and running a successful startup is nothing like being an engineer. And it deserves a very different level of comp. Also - there's plenty of engineers at startups that wouldn't get a job at a large tech co…

My issue is that just because something was hard before you came, but you're just as talented, why do they get 10x in compensation ? It's kind of like saying because Steph Curry came to the Warriors 3 years before when they weren't a Championship-contending team, he deserves 10x Durant's salary. Curry was drafted by the Warriors and started the culture and created small-ball, but could you imagine his salary being so high ? That would be absurd, with Curry making $250 million per year.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#468

Post by qaq »

sidlls wrote: post #310
hello_moto wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a group (Dropbox, Airbnb, LinkedIN, Splunk, etc) between FAANG and Startups and this group pay really well too. I heard Oracle OCI also pays in the 300-400k range (even for Seattle).

Yep, and that's my point: startup compensation is below market even for average, not well known companies.

Linkedin Oracle etc. are not well known companies :)?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#469

Post by rrdharan »

mikekij wrote: post #369

On the compensation point... If you are a smart, quantitative person looking to maximize your income, you should go into investment banking, not software engineering. Partners at an investment bank can make $5M a year. You won't make that as an engineer at Google. Since you're reading this, I'll assume you didn't go into investment banking, but went into engineering, likely because you found it more rewarding. Good j…

Aside from the probability distribution issues with investment banker income, it's actually a much harder thing to simply "go do".

Going straight into investment banking right out of undergrad is a privilege largely reserved for students of "elite" schools [1]. The other way in is post-MBA, but an MBA is quite expensive.

The hourly rate also looks very bad [2]; junior/entry-level research analysts routinely put in 80+ hour weeks, regardless of the reforms that were put in to attempt to curb that sort of abuse after multiple deaths.

[1] https://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/199099/top-50-unive...

[2] https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/careers/comp...

(Edited to add a couple of pertinent links.)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#470

Post by HillaryBriss »

Jach wrote: post #273
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #25

Open plan offices and general lack of a quiet, contemplative, professional working environment is the hugest con to me, even huger than the compensation issues pointed out by other commentors. I would look to start-ups to be leading the effort to improve industry practices for software development ergonomy and human-centric working spaces (i.e. focus on privacy, quiet and individual customizability). But instead, sta…

I review the Joel Test occasionally, even if some of the items are kinda dated. It's amusing how both big companies and startups consistently fail two of them (and the test says if you're at 10/12 or lower there are serious problems). 8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions? 9. Do you use the best tools money can buy? Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and…

> Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and private space, but they don't.

i agree that they should do that. OTOH space isn't cheap. i recall a scrappy startup where 20 people were packed inside a live-work loft. the CEO's office was the master bathroom.

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