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Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

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Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#461
post #455
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a software developer, and I detest working on my mac laptop. At $lastjob I had a Linux desktop and it is, I believe, the most productive environment I have ever developed in. The job before, I had a windows desktop, and I prefer that to mac. You say you want to just "get things done expediently," but in my experience apple software is flat out inferior and OSX is the worst of the 3 major operating systems I have…

2/3s of all PR activity on Github is on a Mac, for what it's worth. Certainly the platform punches above its weight relative to market share. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/102/?time=2...

My last couple of jobs have given me no choice aside from a MBP and OS X. They do this because they don't want to manage multiple kinds of machines from an IT perspective. (I'm not sure I agree with this, but it is what it is.) Depending on how widespread this is, usage may not reflect actual user desire (though I would wager quite a large number of users either don't care what they're using, or care, but a MBP is adequate, but would also be fine on something else.)

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#462
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a software developer, and I detest working on my mac laptop. At $lastjob I had a Linux desktop and it is, I believe, the most productive environment I have ever developed in. The job before, I had a windows desktop, and I prefer that to mac. You say you want to just "get things done expediently," but in my experience apple software is flat out inferior and OSX is the worst of the 3 major operating systems I have…

What apple software do you need to use? Sure, it's annoying not having the GNU command-line utilities. But `brew install coreutils` basically fixes that for me. I admit I don't work heavily with compiled languages on macOS so I can't comment on technical aspects of that. iTerm2 is not inferior to linux terminal emulators. The Apple laptops are quite obviously the best hardware experience out there. I mean obviously i…

I've heard it said that the greatest minds of our generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. However, I feel like the greatest minds of our generation are spent trying to figure out how to enable people to build Linux software on OSX. Whether it is:

* a convoluted process involving Vagrant, Docker, or both, because you depend on one or more pieces of software that don't run at all on OSX, including Docker itself.

* slogging through bugs specific to services running on OSX because they really only support Linux well, such as Cassandra or Kafka, or even MySQL.

* Getting shells scripts that work reliably on both OSX and Linux, especially as the tools used to do so break backwards compatibility, either by Apple itself or by 3rd party tools like HomeBrew.

* Getting a consistent development environment at all on OSX. Doing so seems to be much easier on a Linux distribution than on OSX.

And that's not even talking about general issues like:

* incredibly flaky bluetooth drivers, often requiring a full restart to fix, if not having to reset some weird hardware bit.

* My laptop randomly not waking up properly from sleep and requiring a restart.

* My laptop randomly beach-balling more often than I ever saw BSoDs on windows.

* OSX seeming to just run really slowly compared to Linux whenever it is stressed in any meaningful way.

* My laptop's wifi not working with random wifi endpoints, such as at the airport or hotel. Whether it's router software bugs or OSX bugs, I am always able to connect just fine on my windows laptop.

* Having to deal with OSX's incredibly outdated userland and its BSD-specific userland. Yes, there are workarounds, but they are generally a pain to figure out and have not been standardized in our environment in any way.

* For a few months my OSX terminal was SEG-faulting about twice a week. I learned to be very grateful for screen/tmux during that time. At some point Apple seemed to fix it, at least.

At $lastjob we were actually developing a Linux service that relied heavily on Linux APIs because it was essentially creating full-on Linux containers like Docker. Before I joined, the previous developers, all big apple fans, were actually going through the tremendous effort of trying to make the service at least build and run on OSX, even if it no-oped most of the things it did.

When I joined, one of my first acts was to completely remove OSX support for this service, and I promise you that life got way easier ever since. Our development processes got simpler. Our build system got simpler. And most of all, our source code got simpler and easier to read.

Granted, most of us aren't developing software that directly calls into Linux APIs, but even then I think you'll find huge productivity wins if you just use a Linux laptop or desktop, assuming everything else is equal.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#463
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does matter that the new processor is a lot more powerful and faster than the old processor. This wouldn't be the case this time.

> Geekbench 4 scores are calibrated against a baseline score of 4000 (which is the score of an Intel Core i7-6600U) https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks > iMac (27-inch Retina Mid 2017) | Intel Core i7-7700K @ 4.2 GHz (4 cores) | 5683 https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks > iPhone 8 | Apple A11 Bionic @ 2.4 GHz | 4217 4217 for Apple A11 @ 2.4Ghz vs 5683 for Intel Core i7-7700K @ 4.2GHz Of course, micro…

geekbench scores look impressive because they are very very short bursts to prevent power/thermal throttling on iphones, iphones are able to scale up/down preformance wise very quickly, x86 CPUs less so, so what is really being tested is how fast can a cpu jump from idle to full speed.

Geekbench is not at all a reliable benchmark that tells you anything about real preformance.

Its a total farce to suggest that a CPU with a power budget that is 10x to 20x larger, on a modern process, with modern archtecture is somehow just as fast or slower.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#464
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't easily share media between the Apple ecosystem and others. You can't access some Apple services at all from Linux. There's no way to run userscripts/WebExtensions on IOS. Your device is no longer a user-focused tool to access media, your browser is closer to being a "smart tv" than a customize-able information explorer and augmenter essentially controlled by no one. You're giving up an awful lot for the sak…

> There's no way to run userscripts/WebExtensions on IOS. Your device is no longer a user-focused tool to access media, your browser is closer to being a "smart tv" than a customize-able information explorer and augmenter essentially controlled by no one. I have (personally) never had the desire to write/run a userscript on iOS. If my device being a “smart tv” lets me focus more on other areas of my life (i.e. projec…

As usual, a lot of the innovation you probably take for granted happens through side channels, user-favouring features that would never appear unless they can be "unauthorized" add-ons. Like ad blocking. I understand that some people value convenience above all else, but maybe you never experienced the bad old days when everything was locked down. It's good that Apple still has competition and others are conscious of what might happen.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#465
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's unlikely Apple could make an x86_64 chip Why is it unlikely that Apple would make a x86 chip? Because of IP/licensing, or for technical reasons?

IP/licensing.

Shouldn't the patents be expired by then?

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does your development workflow look like where Linux was so much better than MacOS?

Not OP, but the LLVM toolchain provided by Apple is a bit clunky and missing features relative to what you get from a typical Linux distro.

Something I don’t quite understand, coming from a scripting-language bqckground: why are you using your OS’s provided compiler toolchain (for anything other than building OS packages for distribution?) Is there no version manager for clang the way there is for e.g. Rust?

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#467

This might just be a bargaining move on Apple’s part, but I don’t think so. I think that long term they are much better off controlling their entire hardware stack. I wouldn’t be surprised to even see them make their own display screens. As an Apple customer, I like this idea also. For 20 years, I used to be a desktop Linux fanatic and later became a fan of Android. In the last few years, I have switched to using all…

The problem is that Apple’s focus on this distracts from the software that defines the user experience. The MacOS ecosystem is both beautiful and deeply troubled.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#468
post #381
post #368

I wonder if Apple is maybe looking at AMD for chips? That would be a much less painful switch instead of transitioning to ARM for the Desktop.

It's unlikely. Apple has shown a clear trend towards trying to get rid of absolutely any 3rd party components from their devices. They want the control that full vertical integration gives them. The got rid of the 3rd party ARM design in their iphones/ipads, going for their own ARM/AARCH64 design. They are currently in the process of getting rid of the PowerVR GPU, to be replaced with their own GPU. Moving to their o…

Probably correct. Apple could easily purchase AMD and also get the video card tech from ATI which they seem to favor on their desktop machines.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last point may be a bit of an understatement. It's going to absolutely annihilate x86 virtualization on the Mac. Like, I don't think parallels or VMware will even attempt to write an x86 emulator for ARM, they'll just pack up and leave. But the Mac thrived for a very long time without x86 compatibility, and it can do the same again, virtualization was always kind of a happy accident for us anyway.

There's Windows for ARM, so important Windows applications will be recompiled to ARM and those who stay behind probably can take that performance hit.

Except, like, all the games.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#470
post #323
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not "likely" at all. Apple's CPUs are already faster in single-core benchmarks than the Intel competition, even though the Apple processors in question are designed for mobile devices and have much less power to work with. Apple would not be making this switch if they didn't think they could improve performance.

That's not remotely true. There is some crossover, which is notable. But that means that the fastest iPhone is faster than some of the slower desktops. Intel's current single core leader is a coffee lake running at 4.7 GHz with like 12MB of core-speed cache. Be real.

The current A11 chip is faster single-core than the current MacBook Pro.

The Intel chip you mention isn't in any Apple machine at all. (Except maybe the iMac Pro? Is it even in that?) So you be real. I don't think you've actually looked at the benchmarks. You should do so. I think you'll be shocked at just how much overlap there is, just like I was.

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