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Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

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Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real story is he has no employment rights because he's in America and he's "at will." They can dismiss him because they don't like his lunch selection that day and he has no rights. That's at will employment. This type of situation plays out all over the country everyday.

This seems to imply that had Roy not lived at-will state he would have kept his job and completely misses the real bully in the article. Read the section on the threats Marriott got. China barred Marriot from making online bookings for a week. China would have done everything in their power to make sure someone was going to suffer for Roy’s mishap. At-will employment would have changed little about Roy’s situation vs…

> At-will employment would have changed little about Roy’s situation vs a huge international political bully.

That entirely depends on the country. There is no "huge international bully" clause in employment law.

Not to mention that I'm not sure about "the real bully". If you think that underpaid customer care agents have the responsibility for executing your business strategy in China, maybe you should pay them appropriately. Or maybe you should ensure that someone higher up the food chain takes the fall.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#462

Even if it wasn't an accident -- even if he saw the Tweet, and on behalf of Marriott and in full intention of broadcasting such, he clicked "Like" on this tweet, it's completely insane he would be fired for it. The tweet exhibits a positive sentiment. I would not expect most people to know that this sentiment matters to China. This is another example of China exerting influence on the open web, and it's shameful that…

It is not that hard to imagine being fired by "clicking" likes, let's not oversimplify like this. Official tweeter accounts carry weights. Plus this is not about China at all, what if this is a Nazi tweet? An ISIS tweet? An anti-LGBT tweet? It's either the company's way of dealing with PR problems, or the employee's misconduct, but not about China.

First, it is about China. In fact, I think an ISIS or Anti-LGBT tweet getting liked would be less likely to get someone fired! Marriott is concerned about the Chinese government shutting down their business for a nation. an ISIS/anti-LGBT tweet getting liked would piss people off, get explained away as an obvious accident (especially if the employee were to explicitly apologize and explain themselves) and we'd move on.

The Gods of Chinese Empire apparently do not tolerate slights.

This behavior of greedy Western corporations playing ball with China is flat-out embarrassing.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#463
I feel bad for guy. Everyone has had some mind numbing task that causes you to space out. But! Here is a half baked app idea that might prevent, or at least reduce, this unfortunate situation. Make it like the nuclear launch systems in movies (probably set in rural Nebraska deep down 300 feet below a corn field). There are multiple people getting the same social media feeds. They react independently, but actual responses are delayed. If all the people noticed an event (tweet etc) it goes into a further consideration pool, the rest are dropped. In the further consideration pool, event reaction only get out and leave the system (become real) if the majority are in agreement. In the binary situations it’s a simple vote majority. In free form text, use ML to characterize the content into a few buckets (affirmation, lukewarm, negative and joke (or whatever)). You should call the app “social kaboom averted.”

Personally, I want to live in a society where all three of the voters vote for Tibet over bastard commies. Eff Marriot, or no, wait. Eff Mary-rot!

The system could also work on a delay. So the same person has to double check their own tweets (and hacker news comments) after x hours. That app is called “sleep on it.”

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#465

Chinese citizen here. A few points that I want to make after reading some comments: 1. I would be personally offended if anyone or any organization lists Tibet as a country. 2. Lots of Chinese people would be offended too by this. Reasons for 1 and 2: - It is a piece of wrong information - The wrong information directly contradicts what is considered basic knowledge in China - That basic knowledge happens to be on th…

Could you explain what is your view on the acquisition of the Tibetan territory by China? From what I know about the issue, the transfer of the territory was forced, wasn't it? What justification do you have for invading and annexation of a previously independent country? Is it that it never was independent in the first place? Do you have any sources to support this? I come from a country which was occupied in its en…

I generally disagree with the approach of annexing or colonizing other independent countries. China in particular has suffered much from colonization so that's something we don't like to see happening to other countries.

With that being said, we cannot control what happened in the past, as in the conflicts and sovereignty transfers due to wars that long happened before modern China was born. If you look at the history of China and Tibet, China has exerted sovereignty claims on Tibet since Qing dynasty and Republic of China:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_under_Qing_rule

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_(1912%E2%80%931951)

And it is the Britain that invaded Tibet during the Chinese rule of Tibet in 1903:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_expedition_to_Tibet

The reason for the period of de facto independence afterwards is partly due to British invasion leaving a power vacuum and partly due to China busy fighting WW2 and internal civil war between Kuomintang and Communist Party. So I think it is reasonable and legitimate to claim sovereignty properly after WW2 adn the Chinese civil war is over.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#466
post #21

The meat of the story is that Omaha man worked for Marriott hotels on customer support. Their support system allows their agents to like tweets. The man appears to have inadvertently clicked like on a tweet while dealing with a large influx of support messages (due to a promo going on) thanking Marriott for listing Tibet as its own country which was a huge no-no due to Mariott's presence in China. Execs fire him as a…

The real story is he has no employment rights because he's in America and he's "at will." They can dismiss him because they don't like his lunch selection that day and he has no rights. That's at will employment. This type of situation plays out all over the country everyday.

Buyers and sellers of labor are just like the buyers and sellers of any good or service. Why we've elevated selling labor to a company as something more significant than a barber selling haircuts doesn't make much sense when looked at logically.

If I get my hair cut at a barber every month for years. Do I owe that barber "rights" when I decide I don't want to cut my hair there anymore? I'm buying the labor. I'm hiring that barber to do a job for me. Is it my requirement that I provide that barber with "benefits?" No. I provide that barber with the cash he demands for his services -- then he can choose to buy whatever "benefits" he deems important. If the barber wants to charge me too much, I can find another barber who can do the same quality of job for less money. Perhaps I can't find a replacement, perhaps that barber is the only one with the unique experience to handle my hair -- in which case, he could demand more money since he has a rare combination of skills and experience that I'm willing to pay for. But, if his work is generic, then I can easily find another barber who has lower prices. If that barber wants to strike because he's mad I won't pay him more, then he can strike all he wants -- I'll go somewhere else or just stop getting my hair cut. Not my problem.

The barber's success or failure in the marketplace is due to his ability to control his costs, improve his efficiencies or otherwise differentiate himself within the market. A smart barber will have saved a portion of earnings to mitigate those times when he loses a customer. A even smarter barber will be looking at expanding his skills, increasing innovation and efficiency in order to ensure he's providing a compelling value proposition for his customers.

The not-so-smart barder assumes that past performance is an indicator of future results.

Why we have this backwards notion that the employer, the "customer" of labor has to provide the seller of labor with "protections" is a mystery. To me, it seems like this whole idea is just a Marxist religious belief. Just as fatalism and "the will of God," is a thing in many many Catholic Latin American societies, it seems like this idea of the "worker" as an "exploited" cog in an evil capitalist wheel is equally flawed. This idea that workers need "protecting" serves to infantilize otherwise grown-up adults. Thanks to vestigies of Marxist/Leninist 20th century propaganda, there's an entire school of thought that has workers as victims, children or otherwise incompetent invalids unable to care for themselves. The French Labor Code was built around that very idea.

I've been fired a few times with no-notice. I've also quit a few times with no-notice. I know what it feels like to have the carpet ripped out from under me -- but I don't feel like French style "protections" is the answer because, as quickly as I've been fired, I've been able to find new jobs because when there are fewer restrictions on hiring and firing -- it lowers the cost of hiring and firing. It provides liquidity to the labor market -- which is better for everyone.

Restrictive and highly protectionistic labor markets ALWAYS lead to higher unemployement AND lower wages. Since firing employees is expensive in protected labor markets, that means, necessarily, that companies will be far more conservative in hiring employees in the first place. You aren't going to hire someone quickly. You're going to vet, vet and re-vet potential hires. You're going to discriminate aggressively. You're going to ensure that they have absolutely perfect credentials. You're going to hire people recommended by close friends and trusted associates and those within your existing social circles -- because it would be risky to hire someone with a Algerian last name or from a school you've never heard of or from a country with which you aren't familiar. This is exactly how it works in France. [1]

If you look at Silicon Valley -- while a some level disrimination, it's one of the most diverse places in the world when it comes to national origin. The demand for labor is so high that a transgendered Nigerian midget with a criminal record will get hired if she happened to be an expert in Swift, Java, Go, AI, ML or Ruby. And said migdget could demand (and get) a salary that's 4 times higher that the same midget in Paris, with taxes 50% less and 18% more in after-tax, after-health disposible income. [2] The "problem" with Silicon Valley diversity isn't an unwillingness to hire, it's a relative undersupply of labor from particular groups. There are far fewer women software engineers than men. So it follows that it's going to be harder to hire women software engineers. Now, the reason for that supply problem is another discussion, but the fact is that a qualified anyone can get a job quickly in Silicon Valley -- specifically because there is a highly liquid labor market!

At will employment reduces unemployment and increases market/wage efficiency.

> They can dismiss him because they don't like his lunch selection that day and he has no rights.

Yes, and he has the right to quit if he doesn't like their lunch selection. He isn't a child. Employment is a two-way transaction. I have labor you want, you pay me for it. If either one of us don't like the arrangement, we can walk away. Why is that such a controversial idea? Any transaction where one side or another is forced to act against his or her own interests is wrong. Forcing a company to justify a reason is just as wrong as forcing an employee to justify why they should be allowed to quit.

It's about to be ironic when this post gets the inevitable downvotes -- downvotes from American tech employees and founders that benefit from the very labor liquity that I'm advocating.

[1] http://www.strategie.gouv.fr/english-articles/economic-cost-... [2] http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/France/Unit...

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#467
post #363

Even if it wasn't an accident -- even if he saw the Tweet, and on behalf of Marriott and in full intention of broadcasting such, he clicked "Like" on this tweet, it's completely insane he would be fired for it. The tweet exhibits a positive sentiment. I would not expect most people to know that this sentiment matters to China. This is another example of China exerting influence on the open web, and it's shameful that…

Thought experiment: a Russian multinational, Gazprom maybe, likes a campaign tweet for “Free Alaska.” How does it come across in America?

It’s ignored because Free Alaska is not a thing.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#468
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because they are taking a risk. If you make it harder to fire people, companies simply won't hire them in the first place. The harder it is to fire someone, the more dangerous it is to hire them . The more cautious employers will be about hiring in the first place. This is a real problem in countries that have strict firing laws.

If they “simply wouldn’t hire them in the first place” then they aren’t hiring the correct number of employees to maximize profit.

No, they instead choose to contact work out. Companies acquire labor to maximize profit, and regulations simply cause them to alter how they choose to obtain labor.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#469
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets abused for sure, but more often, businesses get to fire bad employees, and this means they are more likely to give some people a chance who wouldn't get one otherwise. Hiring in certain countries is very risky, because it is so costly to fire a bad employee.

More often, you assert. But have you got any evidence to say so?

The shape of hiring and separation costs in France, Labour Economics (2009)

http://www.crest.fr/ckfinder/userfiles/files/pageperso/krama...

It costs roughly $9000 to fire a French employee for "cause" or "economic reasons."

The Impact of Firing Costs on Turnover and Unemployment: Evidence from the Colombian Labour Market Reform http://web.worldbank.org/archive/website00960A/WEB/PDF/KUGLE...

Conclusion: reducing firing costs reduced unemployment.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is an interesting thing about labor law: it can actually protect both parties. If Marriott was forbidden by law from firing the employee in this situation, then they could much more easily deflect the pressure from China. Make some token gesture and then say, hey, we'd like to do more, but those pesky laws prevent us from doing that. This is a case where everybody wins when there's stronger employee protect…

Nah, the better outcome is Marriott showing it's hand. Better to know who is running the show, the consumers do just fine sorting it out. PR is extremely powerful and at least in the US many of us are very conscious about voting with our money. The alternative, where influence by people that are antithetical to our core values stays under the radar is much more damaging. My whole family will soon know this story, and…

This can work sometimes and may even sound wise, until you realize that a lot of people's character and behaviour is determined by their environment.

So I prefer the direct approach that is known to work by directly helping people do the right thing, over the indirect approach that may or may not work, depending on circumstances.

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