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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#461

Post by TeMPOraL »

serf wrote: post #445
TeMPOraL wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But out of the things he could have learned, which ones would make for a good public apology? If he goes public, and says - "I honestly apologize for my mistake, I never realized you people could so violently overreact to what's essentially politely expressed feasibility comment backed by scientific consensus, and that in the process you'll so maliciously misrepresent me and lie about my intentions and the contents o…

just do what politicians do. apologize as vaguely as possible without calling yourself wrong. "Mistakes were made, and I want to move on with my life....", no details -- just pandering. He won't necessarily be dishonest if he limits the context of the apology. (I don't think one should apologize for opinions and ideas that go un-enacted. Knee-jerk reactions to opinions you don't like tend to blow them up, and that's…

Does that even work, though? We all comment critically here when we see politicians or company CEOs pulling fake-apologies. But since fake-apologies happen, I guess they must be buying the performers something...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#462

Post by saint_fiasco »

rainbowmverse wrote: post #413
saint_fiasco wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admitting you were wrong and apologizing in public , specifically. An individual can be reasoned with, placated. You can make reparations, promises that the other person will believe because of a precedent of mutual trust and forgiveness. However, you can't do that with an angry mob.

The angry mob is irrelevant. There are more individuals watching quietly than people making their positions public. The mob will chill when their friends ask them to post-apology. I have been on all sides of this phenomenon: the chiller, the chillee, the apology. It works.

The mob is big enough that they are not necessarily even friends with each other. People who ask the mob to chill risk being mobbed in turn. Punishment of non-punishers is how mobs sustain themselves.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#463

Post by coldtea »

pm90 wrote: post #359
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

> Almost all of the women from my social circle are smart, pragmatic, driven and successful yet have zero interest in a technical career. They excel in their given industries but ours they want no part of. I don't believe intelligence is more prevalent in either gender, but I do believe there are some traits that shape who we are. That's most definitely a cultural thing, and I believe its what diversity programs try…

>That's most definitely a cultural thing, and I believe its what diversity programs try to address.

If it's a cultural thing, why is one version (attitude/culture) towards it considered better than the other (and thus one has to be "addressed")?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#464

Post by mpweiher »

beebmam wrote: post #306
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Preferences are also very complicated. People may prefer things very differently given the environment. That quote, along with many others, demonstrates the absolute lack of genuineness on the part of Damore. I'm not sure how you get from (1) his logic seems flawed, to (2) he's being disingenuous. Can you please elaborate?

1) I'm not saying his logic is flawed. I'm saying what he's basing his logic upon, that these notions of preferences and ability are scientifically measurable, are false. 2) He has an preconceived theory of how "ability" and "preference" work. The science does not point to his conclusions, because the science cannot point to any conclusions: ability is simply not scientifically understood or defined at all in the sof…

> notions of preferences and ability are scientifically measurable, are false.

Hmm...as to preferences, there are two easy tests:

1. You ask people

When you do, you find that people generally don't like CS. People in developed countries less than in less developed countries. And women less than men, with the gap becoming bigger in more developed countries. And girls less than boys, with the gap becoming larger in more developed countries.

You can also ask them why they choose that way, and in less developed or less prosperous countries, more people say "because of the money". In more prosperous countries, people are, well, more prosperous, so money is less of an issue.

2. You look at how people choose

Same pattern. It's not as if women are forced out of computing and into early childhood education. They choose to go there because, apparently, that is what they want to do.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#465

Post by beebmam »

moduspol wrote: post #354
beebmam wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Neither side must make claims about what is not understood (which is nearly everything). Damore is the one making the claim, and one with very serious consequences.

Would it be fair then to describe Google's hiring policy as preferring the best candidate regardless of race / sex?

No, because "best" is highly unscientific and subjective, and can change in an uncountable number of ways depending on environment.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#466

Post by 55555 »

bmelton wrote: post #368
pm90 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all of the women from my social circle are smart, pragmatic, driven and successful yet have zero interest in a technical career. They excel in their given industries but ours they want no part of. I don't believe intelligence is more prevalent in either gender, but I do believe there are some traits that shape who we are. That's most definitely a cultural thing, and I believe its what diversity programs try…

If the points are fungible (and they absolutely are) then what is the difference between giving extra points to and giving fewer points to . How are they not functionally identical?

This isn't quite the same thing, but i've always found it annoying how it's generally okay to say, for example, that Chinese people are good at math but it's not okay to say that any other group is bad at math, even though the former claim is a relative claim that is presumably understood to be comparative to other groups of people, who are (on average) worse at math.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#467

Post by serf »

mightykan wrote: post #231
john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

“... a stupid political game he didn’t even realize he was playing.” Bullshit! He’s smart enough to work at Google but didn’t realize he was playing a stupid game? I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable. I hope this lawsuit doesn’t go anywhere (very likely since Google has all the money, resources and motivation to crush it).

>I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable.

step back and listen to what you just said.

Why are you glad about that? You're aware that he's still a human that can suffer, like us, right?

This guy isn't a dictator. Find some balance here.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#468

Post by nightcracker »

nashashmi wrote: post #60
Jonovono wrote: post #27

I never really saw too much issue with what he wrote. It seemed a lot of people were mad at him for things he never said. It's been awhile since I read his document, but I remember expecting it to be so bad from all the uproar I was hearing, but after reading it I couldn't find much to be angry about. Can someone enlighten me - i'll admit, this may be a highly ignorant topic of mine.

If you switch out words of gender with words of race, it may sound more offensive. That is what the Youtube CEO said and it immediately began to make sense.

To be the devil's advocate, many things are a lot more offensive if you swap words of gender with race.

"Birth control for blacks", "we need more jews in STEM", "no blacks in the whites only bathroom".

They're more offensive because unlike race there are very real and relevant biological differences when it comes to gender. And whether or not that applies to STEM probably shapes your viewpoints on this subject.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#469

Post by [deleted] »

vowelless wrote: post #403
ryguytilidie wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, Joe Rogan is considered a right wing youtuber? I listen to his show all the time and I'm a pretty big liberal and while he sometimes does the whole "everyone is sooooo PC now" thing, he also talks negatively about Trump, the GOP and right wing politics constantly. I also listened to the James Damore episode, and while I thought James did a good job of making his point and Joe did an AWESOME job of interviewing…

As I mentioned, I don't disparage "right wing". I actually enjoy Joe Rogans podcast, and also Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. All three of them are solidly classical liberal, which is probably right of center today (individualism vs. collectivism, equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, etc). But AFAIK, damore never came to the young Turks, Chapo trap house, which are leftist podcasts. I could be wrong.

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