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Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

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Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you framed your anecdotal evidence as supporting the OP's statement, but also that you misunderstood such statement; and you actually present evidence against it. If companies find it hard to reliably staff generalist positions, _and_ you're a generalist as you claim, then you would find it _easy_ to get a job.

It's strange, but I think at least some companies find it hard to staff positions, while also at the same time ignoring/rejecting suitable candidates. Case in point - I'm a generalist who can very credibly claim very significant expertise at two disconnected areas (compilers and distributed systems), plus some startup/ product management expertise. I saw a job listing here for a startup that needed both of these and…

These kind of job listings may just be used as a cheap form of advertising to show investors and (potential) stakeholders that the company is growing and - therefore - doing well.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh...I hear this sort of thing all the time and I find it sooo obnoxious. Look, the reason that all the students go to university is to make money. Like 90%+ of undergrads go there to make money so whether it "technically" should be a monastery of cloistered academics pondering the universe (based on some high minded notion of what learning "ought" to be for) is besides the point. University costs a shit ton of mone…

> the reason that all the students go to university is to make money. Like 90%+ of undergrads go there to make money Which is it, "all" or "90%?" I went to a private liberal arts college so maybe that automatically puts me and my classmates in the 10% but I did not think the overwhelming majority of us were there to make money. The fact that lots of students still major in subjects that can be very worthwhile and val…

The fact that lots of students still major in subjects that can be very worthwhile and valuable but lack obvious paths to financial success (e.g. most of Humanities and a lot of Social Sciences) indicates "making money" is not why they're there.

"Financial success" doesn't necessarily mean optimizing the total number of dollars in your income; it can also mean being able to do work that you enjoy while having a decent standard of living. If a college degree had no impact on your employment opportunities, how many students would still go?

Trade schools should be trade schools but the U.S. has a dearth of them and many that fit the description aren't good enough.

Which is the point. It's not that universities shouldn't exist, it's that they shouldn't be trying to serve both roles.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#463
post #459

"Your idea is not valuable, at all." If execution is all that matters your idea isn't good enough. I don't care how many times people keep claiming that execution is all that matters, it's still wrong or it becomes tautological, like saying. The key to success is being successful. Good ideas are often shitty ideas until they are good. What makes them good isn't just execution but timing, luck and so many other factor…

I always understood it to mean that a good idea doesn’t sell unless you execute well on it, and also that an idea doesn’t need to be unique, it just needs to be executed better than the competitors.

But that is also not always the case. If you are first to market you don't need to be executing better than the competitors since they don't necessarily exist.

It's way more complex and subtle than the "execution is all that matters" or the "my idea is secured in a password protected powerpoint" camp.

I have helped over a 100 startups and at least in my experience, it's not more correct to say execution is all that matters than to say ideas are all that matter.

Plenty of well-executed ideas don't ever go anywhere because the ideas were wrong, to begin with.

In the context of this otherwise fine list by Patrick this is just particularly problematic because it's wrong in a non-obvious way but sounds right.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A grad student who wasn't a decent programmer was either a cheater in undergrad, or didn't come from our school. This particular student came from a different engineering background. Yet, he still got admitted into a top 5 CS program. And whether he did CS or not in his undergrad is beside the point. I think this is a task any engineering grad should be able to do. If not, the university should not be listing progra…

you are being very critical, a part of university education is tolerance, although some opinions differ on if that relates to knowing literally everything. Trade-offs are a part of engineering because optimal solutions don't always exist. I'm saying, programming often is just knowing which functions to pick, which is not an inert skill except for reading comprehension, if there is a good documentation. There's nothin…

>I'm saying, programming often is just knowing which functions to pick, which is not an inert skill except for reading comprehension, if there is a good documentation. There's nothing universal to learn there, the interesting bit is writing those functions. But a pseudo random number generator is rather advanced stuff.

First of all, I'm not asking them to know "advanced" random number generation theory. As a kid, using random number generators in BASIC was one of the first things we did when we learned programming - it makes writing programs a lot more fun. Granted, it's not usually covered in introductory programming courses. But all that is needed is one API call. I pretty much told him what he needed to do. I showed him the API he needs to generate random numbers. We talked in big picture terms about the algorithm (set up the experiment, run 10000 times, take the ratio of success over number of runs). We talked about the theory on why such an experiment would answer his question. I helped in every way other than the actual coding. Had he written some code, I would have helped debug (some probability experiments are tricky to code correctly - that is acceptable).

He just couldn't translate the problem to code.

>You are being very critical, a part of university education is tolerance, although some opinions differ on if that relates to knowing literally everything. Trade-offs are a part of engineering because optimal solutions don't always exist.

I definitely am being critical. When you graduate, you get a seal from your institution that is supposed to be a guarantee of something. My question is: What is that something? If you start dealing with math graduates from a university and you find they often cannot do basic algebra, you stop valuing the seal the university provides - which damages all math graduates of the university. They are working very hard to get a certificate that is not valued by others.

Would you trust a physics graduate who cannot do basic calculus? You can argue that he may know all the theories (conservation of energy, electromagnetics, etc), and understands the principles behind calculus (area of curves, rates of change, etc). But if they struggle with basic evaluation of integrals, you probably will wonder about what kinds of courses they taught in his university that allowed him to get a degree without actually solving problems with calculus.

This is the problem the author is talking about. If you consistently interview people with computer science degrees, who cannot do a simple fizzbuzz, you stop valuing the degree - and that is the general landscape in the software world. Those who worked hard to gain a lot of knowledge relevant to both theory and practice are right to be upset that because of lax (or at least misguided) standards from their educational institution, they have to go through more hoops to convince people of their skills.

It goes beyond the simple mantra of "Universities teach computer science, not software." I would question the technical ability of anyone who cannot write such a simple program, with as much guidance as I provided - be they a CS major or a math major. I'm not asking for practical knowledge like whether unit testing is useful, or how to architect large software, or the virtues of OO over FP. Just a basic program. Can you write it?

Certainly there is not universal agreement on the curriculum. I'm saying there should be agreement on some basics. Historically, universities handle this by ensuring some introductory course is in the curriculum. My argument is that in the US the education system is a little too modularized, and there should be more coupling. If programming is seen to be a core skill that engineers should know, make writing code an aspect of every engineering course (it's really easy to construct assignments/projects in pretty much any engineering course that could involve writing code).

Don't let someone get an A in the introductory course in his freshman year, and then allow him to forget pretty much everything he learned from it by the time he graduates. If you do, you wasted the student's time, the instructor's time, and the time of all the interviewers who cannot trust your degree and have to check for themselves if this person knows the basics.

Again, it all boils down to: The university is giving you a degree. Is this degree a guarantee of anything? If so, what? I'm all for education for the sake of gaining knowledge. But how many of us would be OK with gaining the knowledge without any kind of certification from the university? Not many, I suspect. I actually did this personally (dropped out of PhD after many years as I felt I gained the knowledge but did not feel a degree would help me), and can assure you from the conversations I had with others who tried to convince me otherwise that pretty much almost everyone wants that paper to have some value.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the causal factor for both class and higher education is intelligence. The Bell Curve makes a compelling case that the transition away from agriculture toward knowledge work over the last 100 years has created a society in which intelligence is funneled into higher education and from there into high paying professions.

The Bell Curve is a famous case of quasi-science. You are putting statistical speculation up against centuries of well-documented explicit discrimination policies.

You seem to be rather confused about the Bell Curve.

It's my understanding that the main data presented hasn't been overturned or disproved (In-fact quite the opposite)

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#466
post #387

> There is no hidden reserve of smart people who know what they're doing, anywhere. Not in government, not in science, not in tech, not at AppAmaGooBookSoft, nowhere. The world exists in the same glorious imperfection that it presents with. This is painfully true. I so often hoped someone will explain some Linux stuff to me but... strace it is :)

I think the main point of the quote is that nobody knows everything. There are pockets of knowledge, and there are specialists who know quite a bit about Linux. ;) You just need to find that person and not expect them to also know about something completely different like Windows or Asian-Pacific geopolitics.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#467
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've definitely been part of a hiring process where "over-experienced" gets thrown around a lot. Here's stuff that comes up all the time: - The main and probably unfair assumption that they will want more money and special treatment for the same amount of grunt work. - They will not respect the (majority 20-something) peers and will try to subtly enforce seniority (again, unfair). - They will refuse to do grunt work…

> If they were truly experienced, they would be getting poached or going through a headhunter. Huh, is that very common? As someone with 10 years of experience but very little job-hopping (perhaps to my detriment) I always had this feeling that recruiters were a bit like dodgy car salesman, and that a direct application would be better.

Good recruiters are excellent networkers who are in touch with the most exciting businesses in your area and field of expertise. I've only met one but if I ever find myself looking for a job then I'll be talking with him.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating point. Is "training vs education" a useful pair of terms? Universities used to be for education, now often its assumed they are for training only. (Bachelor of Science in Hotel Management I come across nowadays - in what?! ) I often hear people talk as if education was something that happened to them, then it finished. (Like learning is something you just do in an institution.) I guess training is more li…

How is learning how to run a hotel not an education? Are all the Agriculture and Mechanical universities not education?

Well, that's the point - those things, training to do a particular job, are now thought of as 'education'.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#469
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, all these things people are saying are indeed true, but they also make the university comparison in the original quote something of a red herring.

I'm not sure you, or any other of the other commenters in this thread, quite understand what was meant by "university money". "University money" is what it costs to buy scientific journals; in theory anybody can do it, in practice only Universities have both the need and the funding to do it. It isn't that your phone is a university... it is that it has all this information accessible for so dirt cheap that African f…

Interesting, thanks for the clarification.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#470
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how many libraries have subscriptions to Playboy? It might be a difference, but it's a difference for which the university comparison is a red herring. How many universities have a porn department?

Universities can study porn under the heading of the humanities or social science. The fact they don't have an explicit "Department of Pornography" is both an accident of our culture and a reflection of the fact our "top-level categories" for academics are more abstract than that. My point is, libraries maintain a very curated collection, and choose their holdings and resources based on very restrictive criteria, inc…

I think we're both way off topic if jerf's description of the intended meaning of the quote is accurate.

But I have yet to be in a university library that stocks back-issues of Playboy...

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