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Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

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Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#461
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doxing refers to identifying anonymous writers on the internet. So I'm not sure what you are referring to - Emil Michael was discussing reporting true but embarrassing personal facts about (public figure) Sarah Lacy. Specifically, the idea was to write articles like these, but with Sarah Lacy (founder of Pando) as the subject: https://pando.com/2014/02/27/we-call-that-boob-er-the-four-m... https://pando.com/2014/10/0…

No, the idea was to dig up private information about people in retaliation for them doing their jobs because the things they write don't reflect well on Uber. The first article there is taking a public PR interview that someone chose to give and copy pasting it. He should be thanking Pando for it, they are simply repeating quotes he intentionally gave to the public with a little bit of editorializing. The second one…

No, the idea was to dig up private information about people in retaliation for them doing their jobs because the things they write don't reflect well on Uber.

I don't understand - you wrote the word "no" in front a sentence in complete agreement with me.

If I understand your argument, it's wrong for Uber to investigate and report true facts because you give them personal information (which presumably would not be used in this reporting) and because Uber speaks to the public and lobbies the government for redress of grievances? Could you explain why these activities somehow make investigating and reporting true facts somehow wrong?

(Your use of the term "forcibly alter" is, I assume, hyperbole. As far as I'm aware Uber has never used force against anyone, although it is often the victim of others who use force.)

What other activities causes one to lose one's (moral, if not legal) right to investigate and report true facts? If Sarah Lacy (for example) had an abortion, refused to allow soldiers to quarter in her house or refused to incriminate herself, would she then lose her (moral or ethical) right to investigate and report?

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the reporter didn't read the blog post, because it was beyond his attention span. Honestly, it just sounds like an editor assigned him to report. If he had read it he wouldn't have summarized it as "a lengthy post on her personal blog": he would have written that Fowler wrote about her experiences which began " On my first official day rotating on the team, my new manager sent me a string of messages over compa…

> Maybe the reporter didn't read the blog post, because it was beyond his attention span. I know Mike and I assure you that (1) he has the attention span to read a blog post, and (2) he was not just "assigned." He's on the tech beat. He lives in San Francisco, not New York. And he's paying very close attention to this story. Go look at his Twitter feed if you don't believe me. https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac

EDIT: Mike has responded to me by email. I'm keeping the comment below but as long as the piece is updated over time I'm probably fine with it. Don't read too much into my critique below.

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Original version of this comment:

How do you explain the fact that Mike didn't quote the original instance of harrassment, nor summarize it in his own words, turning away from the highly interesting quote, "On my first official day rotating on the team, my new manager sent me a string of messages over company chat...He was trying to stay out of trouble at work, he said, but he couldn't help getting in trouble, because he was looking for women to have sex with" (which Mike could have summarized in his own words, or selectively quote) for the much less precise quote "It was clear that he was trying to get me to have sex with him, and it was so clearly out of line that I immediately took screenshots of these chat messages and reported him to HR", which does not mention the context or messages.

How do you explain that Mike chose not to quote "I was then told that I had to make a choice: (i) I could either go and find another team and then never have to interact with this man again, or (ii) I could stay on the team, but I would have to understand that he would most likely give me a poor performance review when review time came around, and there was nothing they could do about that" which is what separates this from an instance of propositioning someone and this person turning them down, which is ill-advised but can happen. It is an extremely salient quote and could be accurately written by Mike as Fowler claims HR informed her she could change teams or "could stay on the team, but [she] would have to understand that [her manager] would most likely give [her] a poor performance review when review time came around". That is the money quote, what separates this from a run-of-the-mill passing expression of romantic (or sexual) interest to someone who didn't reciprocate. (After all there are perfectly acceptable office romances as well as flings, asking someone is not the end of the world). Asking someone for sex is one thing, the quote Mike left out entirely is another, and it is absolutely inconceivable that any attentive and honest journalist who read that source could so badly report it. How can he be a good and attentive reporter, who actually read that with interest (as opposed to a quick assignment) and leave it out entirely?

Mike chooses not to accurately summarize the write-up, calling it "a lengthy post on her personal blog". He says "The engineer, Susan Fowler, said that she was sexually harassed by her direct supervisor" whereas she does not make this specific claim but simply lists the facts of the matter, which the journalist chose not to report, putting words in her mouth instead. Journalists report facts, not their take on it. If someone says "I was blackout drunk when we had sex" (this is technically rape) a reporter does not have the right to say the source claims she was raped. That's not the quote.

How can he put words in her mouth? (If he actually attentively read his source and is an honest journalist.)

It's simply not an accurate summary of his source. She did not claim that. The only time that expression is mentioned is in the sentence "I was told by both HR and upper management that [...] this was clearly sexual harassment". Not words she used.

Overall, Fowler did not say she was sexually harassed. She related that her manager said he was always getting in trouble for propositioning for sex, and she related that after informing HR, she was told she could stay but would likely get a poor performance review, or transfer to another team.

She related other issues she experienced as a woman, such as poor performance reviews, on another team (this is unrelated to the above), which she interpreted (likely correctly) as a means of keeping her on a team (due to the lack of women), i.e. as a way of blocking her transfer from a role she was performing well in at the time. In total most of the blog post is not about sexual harassment, but rather about the culture at Uber from the perspective of a woman. She devotes considerable attention to the percentage of women at the company, and their experiences there, which she closes her blog post with.

The reason I suspect Mike did not actually read the article, or is a very poor reader (or has some conflict of interest, or was in a hurry/inattentive, or was writing the story he wanted to write instead of what he read) is that he did not characterize its tone correctly. The blog post (his only source) is titled "Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber" (he leaves out that title). The blog post actually opens with "It's a strange, fascinating, and slightly horrifying story" and closes with "And when I think about the things I've recounted in the paragraphs above, I feel a lot of sadness, but I can't help but laugh at how ridiculous everything was. Such a strange experience. Such a strange year."

Finally, why does Mike, who mischaracterizes the blog post, not mention the facts of the matter, which is that Fowler was a highly qualified engineer who wrote a technical book that built on her time there, and that she felt the team was the perfect one for her? He leaves this out entirely. Like, he doesn't even glance at her credentials.

In sum, I find that Mike either has poor reading comprehension skills, or did not take the time to read the post, or simply is not honestly summarizing it.

His article is not an accurate summary of the blog post that I read, which is his sole and only source. Read it yourself and look through the rest of Fowler's site if you don't believe me. He does not capture the tone of the source he reports whatsoever.

The linked article is poorly written by a bad or dishonest journalist. [EDIT: this is going too far and I withdraw this line.]

If you know Mike personally, please send him my critique of his reporting. It's shamefully bad and he should be more attentive. [withdrawn]

EDIT: Actually I found his email in the twitter handle you linked and have sent him this thread myself. He needs to do a better job.

EDIT2: he already replied to my email, saying he wanted to get the piece out there short and quickly, and planned to go a bit deeper soon. (I replied suggesting he at least update the piece to add the most important quotes.)

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#463
post #291

As a meta, it seems to be an infallible rule of Hacker News that any discussion about the relationship between men and women turns into an angry painful mess in no time. Maybe we should look into this anger itself rather than draw all sorts of conclusions from cases of which we don't know half of what really happened.

It's similar to conversations between conservatives and liberals. Both groups have implicit assumptions about how the world works. They have implicit value judgements, in preferring one thing versus another. Conversation almost never describes these implicit assumptions. As a result, each side ends up thinking that the other side is stupid, obtuse, biased, etc. Getting to the underlying biases is hard. As evidence, s…

That headline, and your comment on it, is a thought provoking example. I can easily imagine people with all sorts of opinions overlaying their own biases/preferences on what you said, and then responding reflexively. It's quite frustrating to watch people 'talk past' each other in this way.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#464
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow no. Every rational person should be scrutinizing evidence. Not to do so would be insane. But the evidence here clearly points in her favor.

When was the last time you read a legal brief for fun? "Scrutinizing evidence" here is a technical task done by experts.

You are defining evidence as "legal evidence", and you're the only one using that definition here.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is popular in the USA right now to silence rational, evidence based discussions. Now more than ever it is of vital importance that we stick to values of relying on open dialogue, reason, and facts. If these values only apply when they are convenient and comfortable for you then they aren't your values, but instead a rhetorical tool you abuse. As a community of above-average intelligence and reason, I am disappoint…

Here's the thing: If you had ever taken even a few minutes to sit down with women who work in our industry and asked them if anything like this has ever happened to them you would learn it is extremely common. You would also learn that women rarely get the benefit of the doubt in these situations and are often punished or eventually forced out of the company. Women don't talk about it because jerks immediately start…

> Here's the thing: If you had ever taken even a few minutes to sit down with women who work in our industry and asked them if anything like this has ever happened to them you would learn it is extremely common.

This type of argument is extremely dangerous. Not only isn't it true for many (I've done this), it's conflating claims with evidence.

If one is being honest, it's clear that the vast majority of news outlets that routinely cover activities in the tech industry are ideologically left-leaning and progressive towards ideas like those in feminism. It's regularly claimed that sexism in the tech industry is a major issue as fact, including in the linked article:

> Ms. Fowler’s account is another sign of Silicon Valley’s struggle with women’s issues and diversity in a male-dominated engineering environment.

This is a factual claim, and no evidence is ever given for claims like these from left-leaning media.

Now, given that we have an established media that leans this way, and has a long history of sensationalizing the hell out of anything that they find validates their position, why is it then that stories like these are so infrequent? Why must we suspend disbelief and not require evidence a few times a year when these stories get published and talked about? And further, why then must we conclude that because we get a few sensationalized cases per year that this is a pervasive issue which many women face, as you claim?

Given the context that these same outlets routinely print other stories that overhype exaggerated or outright false claims in this same vein (earnings mismatch, college "rape" statistics, etc), why is this suddenly the issue where second guessing what's printed is not okay? Surely merely believing what anyone tells you uncritically is dangerous.

I'll gladly wait until actual evidence is presented, or a group that is actually informed by the facts of the case (and not overly sensationalized clickbait articles) makes a decision regarding the merits. That's for the judge and any jury to decide, and the rest of us can opine when actual evidence is provided. A blog post truly is insufficient.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the major roles of unions nowadays is providing access to legal counsel (specifically lawyers with experience in workplace issues).

But are they your lawyer, or the union's lawyer here? Companies have lawyers too, but they're not your lawyer.

Obviously it varies, but in my experience it's "Here's a list of lawyers we have vetted and consider to be qualified in matters relating to employment". Sometimes it's "We'll also pay for an hour of their time for an initial consultation".

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Uber reflexively solved problems through discipline and process, they wouldn't have wound up in this situation in the first place. Far more likely is something like the least powerful people they can get away with scapegoating end up thrown to the wolves. 1-2 non-HR managers for being weak enough to let the situation get out of hand, and a bunch of HR folks for not effectively covering.

That will only work if those thrown to the wolves get some serious hush-money, as in "I'll never have to work again" money. I assume those folk have some strong evidence that the protection of misogynist employees went further up the org chart.

That assumes a lot about making-sure-you-have-a-paper-trail skills and how effectively management dodges that. Suppose you're a forward-thinking manager in a quickly growing company - do you promote the HR person who asks for a paper trail, or the one that is okay with getting told to do sketchy stuff in a deniable way?

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#468
post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, are you a man or a woman? I'm only asking because you cite your experience at 6 companies to support the assertion that this is not a widespread problem in SV. I assert that men would have a harder time detecting this problem.

I've been transitioning from male to female, starting 4 years ago. It was shocking to me when I started making friends with girls and listening to their stories. At first I didn't empathize and presented arguments such as, "they had best intentions" or "it was just a misunderstanding". After having friends and my mind/body being transformed by estrogen I began to understand and empathize with my female friends; I beg…

Thank you for sharing your rare perspective.

> My point being that its quite surprising how different experience can be and how important it is to listen to how others experience the world.

That's advice that I would normally accept as good, like a Ben Franklin quote. But coming from you it strikes me as especially valuable, especially in light of current events.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#469
post #408

As I commented last night[1], the New York Times has cast Fowler's experience as a he-said-she-said story. Unfortunately I was not pessimistic enough: 1. The New York Times spiked the most damning part of Fowler's story: that HR was actively involved in supporting the behavior. 2. It down plays Fowler's specific experience as typical for the industry and marginalizes it by bringing Pao's story into Fowler's narrative…

NYTimes is a news organization with a mandate to report on verifiable fact, not rumor or opinion. You're complaining that it's reported as a he-said-she-said type of story… but for now, that's exactly what it is. The claims are quite plausible and convincing (and likely true), but at this point they still are merely unsubstantiated claims. If I were to imagine the right way to report such a story at this point, it wo…

For comparison consider:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39024445

The BBC provides a substantial account of Fowler's statement and places it in the context of her former employer's disclosure policies regarding diversity and those in the broader context of other tech industry corporations.

The New York Times portrayed Fowler's statement as 'ordinary' sexual aggression that could happen any where there's a bad apple and ignored the management and human resource angles.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily really a blacklist, but when the court case comes up when the employer googles your name... companies like to claim to be pro-equality since they get good press for it, but they're not actually going to put that to any sort of test. Much easier to hire somebody who's not proven themselves willing to stand up for their rights.

It sounds like it was settled before anything went to court, so it's unclear that anything would even come up in a Google search. And yet employers are still finding out somehow.

Word of mouth is powerful.
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