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Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

webkit.org

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Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#461

Post by alwillis »

kabes wrote: post #400
om2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are wrong on that. Vulkan is a low-level native API, not a JavaScript API for the web. Lots of design work needs to be done. In addition, even on platforms where there are unofficial Vulkan drivers (such as Windows), it's likely the natively available API will still have more complete support and better performance. So either way, we need a cross-platform graphics API. Let's focus this discussion on impro…

You wanna focus this discussion on improving the web platform? Great, start with finally shipping WebRTC.

Relax--they’re working on it: https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#462

Post by rehemiau »

hota_mazi wrote: post #74
om2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not complaining, we're explaining the lay of the land. Working on top of all three of these APIs is totally doable and will result in a better API for the web. Things worth noting: - We believe other browser vendors agree with us that the web API should work on all three of the major native APIs. - The web has security requirements which force us to go a bit higher-level than Vulkan anyway. I understand your de…

> I understand your desire to have Vulkan on Apple platforms, but it's really a separate issue from the right target for WebGPU. No, it's not a separate issue. If Apple supported Vulcan, the simple act of proposing this new API as a standard would be laughed out of the room. We can only speculate why Apple won't support Vulcan but I'm going to go with "Prefer a solution they designed themselves over one designed by o…

> I understand your desire to have Vulkan on Apple platforms, but

There are no 'but's. Just support it and we can have simpler APIs on top of it.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#463

Post by alwillis »

stymaar wrote: post #416
threeseed wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Provide a source that Apple actively prevents it. Developers can ask users for their admin password, sudo to root and largely do whatever they want including adding kernel extensions and drivers.

> sudo to root and largely do whatever they want Not anymore, even being root doesn't give you total control now[1], and custom kernel extensions are among the things that are prohibited. This «feature» bas been introduced in El Capitan for «security reason». [1] System Integrity Protection : System Integrity Protection

It's easy to disable System Integrity Protection:

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Se...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#464

Post by alwillis »

MikusR wrote: post #234
threeseed wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple allows you to provide an alternative API on OSX but not on iOS. Microsoft is exactly the same. They do not support custom APIs on Windows Mobile AFAIK.

It's a dead platform with no market-share.

Latest results of the so-called dead platform--"iPhone, Services, Mac and Apple Watch Set All-Time Records"

http://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/01/apple-reports-record-f...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#465

Post by xenadu02 »

ioquatix wrote: post #398
xenadu02 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vulkan is not suitable for exposure directly to the web. Full stop. Therefore your posts are off-topic.

Do you even know how Vulkan works? The driver API exposes a layered stack. It's trivial to add a validation layer between the driver and the client. It's SO much better than existing OpenGL or DirectX driver models for this one reason alone.

Yes, I do. I'm also slightly familiar with OpenGL and Metal.

I think Metal has a better API. You are free to disagree of course.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#466

Post by jamstruth »

MrScruff wrote: post #444
ChuckMcM wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to be uncharitable here, I'm just sharing how it looks to someone driving by. That doc says: "It[WebGL] was based on OpenGL ES, a cross-platform API for graphics targeted at embedded systems. This was the right starting place, because it made it possible to implement the same API in all browsers easily, especially since most browser engines were running on systems that had support for OpenGL." And then it…

But isn't the Vulcan situation on windows similar to the OpenGL one? You need to install drivers... In which case won't browser makers target directx anyway, as they have with webgl?

Why would Microsoft behave any differently to this new API when they have not officially supported previous open attempts?

Adding another standard to the mix just seems to be compounding the problem to me.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#467

Post by xxs »

paulddraper wrote: post #358
saurik wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebSQL was never going to be picked up by Microsoft either: it was a WebKit-only concept that was doomed from the start.

Opera might disagree.

Opera is WebKit based, so your remark is not well placed.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#468

Post by igravious »

Tagbert wrote: post #399
nicc wrote: post #149

Apple proposing standards is ridiculous. They only care about standards when they're basically forced to adopt/support them, or they're their own. These are the same guys that: - use lightning instead of mini USB - removed the headphone jack - are creating yet another proprietary connector for accessories - don't allow their OS on third-party hardware - only allow developing for iOS from macOS - only allow apps on iO…

Apple’s “new” UAC port wasn’t made by Apple, and it isn’t new https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/02/no-apple-isnt-developi...

Eh? Seems you're _both_ wrong according to an Ars commenter[1]:

“It seems many people are missing the point of this. 3rd party cable makers want to make certified cables that are Lightning to UAC port so people can plug in iPhones and iPads into cameras that use these ports. Apple isn't wanting to use this port, it is the cable manufacturers wanting to make adapter cables to plug more things into iPhones and iPads.”

[1] https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/02/no-apple-isnt-developi...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#469

Post by xxs »

unsigner wrote: post #411

"Only platforms without Vulkan are Apple's" is most certainly NOT true. The Xbox One is a widely available platform for which a lot of 3D effort is invested, and rewards this effort really well - much better than other platforms (like desktop Linux or old versions of Windows) that are frequently thrown around as arguments for "Vulkan everywhere". It is a common observation among game developers who have really tried…

>>It is a common observation among game developers who have really tried both that Metal is a much more accessible API than Vulkan; "90% of the performance for 10% of the effort".

Any citation on the matter?

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#470

Post by algo_cheese »

pjmlp wrote: post #431
ioquatix wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that DX12 doesn't support Windows 7 or 8, so that cuts out a significant portion of the existing market.

Still higher than GNU/Linux will ever be.

Not if you take Android into account.
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