Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#461

Post by baby » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 1:14 PM UTC

garyfirestorm wrote: post #397

baby wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the long wait for GreenCard (10 years). Can you explain this? I'm currently waiting for a greencard.

green cards are equally distributed to all countries. 7%? hence the amount of time you will wait is dependent on where you are from. for india/china, i believe its close to 8-9 years. but if you come from a country where no one applies for green card, chances are this process will be done in 6 months.

So you're talking about a sponsored greencard by your company? This is weird as this wasn't mentioned to me. There is a fixed step-by-step process to have a greencard and you have to go through all of them.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#462

Post by projectramo » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #308

projectramo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I now see what you are saying. So let's take apart those two points. You might be asking how could replacing a $25 worker with a $2 worker -- foreign, domestic, etc doesn't matter -- have no economic impact on jobs and wages? So one might argue the following: The company paying the $25 to the first worker, now has $23 in profit/savings. What happens to that money? They might reinvest it, they might pay it out a…

"from an economic perspective the net impact of jobs and wages has not been significant." I suppose you mean "from a global financial economic perspective". And you are right, of course: income equals expenditure. From a economic local perspective, you have now a worker that before won 25$ and now doesn't. He is pissed off, and it's going to vote somebody that looks angry too. You have 23$ in profit that will go (wit…

No, I did not mean from a "global" perspective.

Most of that money is likely to be re-invested or spent in the United States.

You make a whole host of claims in your 4th sentence about the London condo mines etc. which I don't understand.

Just to be clear: the price of commodities don't get magically untaxed by Ireland. The transfer pricing only applies in cases where the value-add is not objective such as IP.

If the $23 were re-invested it would increase jobs and increase wages too.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#463

Post by strainer » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #460

strainer wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By way of an unrealistic formalisation there you actually assumed that salaries are determined exclusively by labour supply and far more predictably and linearly than possible. The complexity of the economy, greatly confounds simplistic formulas.

So you're complaining because my post above isn't a more comprehensive analysis? I was responding to one specific point, not implying that the above formula is a complete model of the economy.

Excuse me it was not a complaint it was a criticism breifly and carefuly explained to be constructive. I was pointing out that if you had wrote: "Assume salaries are determined exclusively, predictably and linearly by labour supply..." the position for your observations would be clearly flawed, so you would have to examine them more and find a better footing for them (which there may well be - i havent wondered).

But you did write precisely that case in symbolic form - the technical value of formulas is that they are precise and we write them to be precise, so look at what you assumed there!

Good day :)

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#464

Post by Chris2048 » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

strainer wrote: post #463

Chris2048 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're complaining because my post above isn't a more comprehensive analysis? I was responding to one specific point, not implying that the above formula is a complete model of the economy.

Excuse me it was not a complaint it was a criticism breifly and carefuly explained to be constructive. I was pointing out that if you had wrote: "Assume salaries are determined exclusively, predictably and linearly by labour supply..." the position for your observations would be clearly flawed, so you would have to examine them more and find a better footing for them (which there may well be - i havent wondered). But…

You are suggesting that a symbolic form implies "precision", further implying "exclusive determination"?

I disagree, in this case I used a symbolic form to prevent ambiguity, that is all. The relationship outlined is done so in a precise manner, but it is not comprehensive.

also, you'll note I described the relationship as "is-a-function-of", which provides sufficient cover in any case.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#465

Post by steevenwee » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

Simaramis wrote: post #429

steevenwee wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of your claims are false. And for argument sake if they were true, let's face it: Ukraine not only was independent since 1991, but it's territory integrity was guaranteed by Russia and USA.

It's mostly a question. How can you declare a question false?

ok, let me show you an example of a false question: Isn't it true that the USA is a dictatorship?

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#466

Post by steevenwee » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 3:31 PM UTC

Simaramis wrote: post #424

steevenwee wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of your claims are false. And for argument sake if they were true, let's face it: Ukraine not only was independent since 1991, but it's territory integrity was guaranteed by Russia and USA.

I would only request that it should be viewed in context of its history. Especially if we might decide to enshrine the world in more war over it. It is in its current state a construct, without a foundation. To reach peace, a compromise must be reached.

'I would only request that it should be viewed in context of its history.' THE context of its history is that Ukraine was independent longer than the USA exists. And even despite that fact, the post-soviet era requires borders to be intact in order to reach peace. If we'll let this go, that would mean that it is 'ok' to invade countries and we would fall down back into world wars times. *And by invading countries, I mean grabbing someone's else land and declaring it your own.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#467

Post by sulam » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #101

sulam wrote: post #46

Speaking as someone who has hired H1-B's in the past, there really do seem to be two tiers. There's the companies/organizations that are truly abusing the system and then there are the traditional tech companies who are happy to hire anyone qualified, no matter where they are from, and pay and promote them the same as other employees. They also sponsor green cards. Competition between these employers has gotten to th…

They are only being paid fair market value because the H-1Bs are suppressing the fair market value. Without the H-1Bs you would have had to pay more, and that "more" would have been the fair market value. You say "matching Netflix offers is very expensive": again, no, matching Netflix offers is the fair market rate, and without H-1Bs, the rate would be higher. Indeed, unless you are a well known company, you should e…

Arguing with strangers on the Internet is not something I enjoy, so I'll just point out some details of this that I either didn't cover or that were apparently overlooked.

1) We actually did match Netflix's offer in total comp, by offering Bob a mix of base salary and stock that exceeded the total value of their Netflix offer significantly. The difference is that Netflix's offer was all cash. It is very hard to compare a Netflix offer to a pre-IPO Twitter offer except in hindsight. Bob, a market participant, ended up picking the better offer.

2) I truly question whether H1-B's are lowering the fair market value at the tech companies I've worked at, have had offers from, or have had to counter offers from. Via these three means I've gotten a good handle on what people pay at the top tech companies in SV, and as far as I have been able to determine the supply of H1-Bs who can get through an interview process is so greatly outstripped by the demand for such engineers, there is effectively no impact to salaries. H1-Bs are a very small proportion of SV hiring, and are probably even smaller outside SV, _except_ for the companies that I called out in my initial post on this thread who I agree are abusing the system. Engineers working at those firms aren't showing up in my recruiting pipeline, much less getting offers, so they have zero impact on the market for top engineering talent.

If you're trying to say that the addition of even a single qualified candidate into the hiring pool lowers what we pay a developer, you don't understand how engineering hiring works at tech companies.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#468

Post by lowbloodsugar » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

sulam wrote: post #467

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are only being paid fair market value because the H-1Bs are suppressing the fair market value. Without the H-1Bs you would have had to pay more, and that "more" would have been the fair market value. You say "matching Netflix offers is very expensive": again, no, matching Netflix offers is the fair market rate, and without H-1Bs, the rate would be higher. Indeed, unless you are a well known company, you should e…

Arguing with strangers on the Internet is not something I enjoy, so I'll just point out some details of this that I either didn't cover or that were apparently overlooked. 1) We actually did match Netflix's offer in total comp, by offering Bob a mix of base salary and stock that exceeded the total value of their Netflix offer significantly. The difference is that Netflix's offer was all cash. It is very hard to compa…

I applaud you for paying H1B the same as your other employees. I was an H1B myself in SV. My experience, and those of my peers, differs greatly from your experience.

To answer some of your points here:

> It is very hard to compare a Netflix offer to a pre-IPO Twitter offer except in hindsight.

No, its not hard. There's overwhelming evidence that the expected future value of a pre-IPO start-up is zero. Its a lottery. Might as well contract "we'll buy you a lottery ticket every week you are an employee".

>If you're trying to say that the addition of even a single qualified candidate

Is that what I said tho? What about 80,000 candidates? What about 30,000 candidates that are hired by contracting organizations with the express purpose of moving US jobs offshore? Isn't that the antithesis of H1B visas? Isn't that perjury?

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#469

Post by verst » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 8:43 PM UTC

garyfirestorm wrote: post #398

verst wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a big fan of her bill for the above (market-based) approach and other reasons: - F-1 student visa becomes dual-intent. This is huge! Essentially an employer could now sponsor permanent residency directly out of a PhD program (or even college assuming sufficient work experience for employment-based immigration). No need to first get a H-1B. - It appears that switching employers while on the H-1B becomes easier (th…

this week* unless trump does something to this process ;) just kidding. congrats!

You joke, but that definitely has crossed my mind. I've been avoiding the recent protests out of an abundance of caution.

But I'm prepared [1] for my first day as a citizen tomorrow.

[1]: medium.com/@BerndVerst/preparing-for-my-first-day-as-a-u-s-citizen-2be7e4719317

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#470

Post by mdorazio » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

msie wrote: post #342

mdorazio wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing two key points here - 1) what are corporations doing with their increased profits as a result of tactics like abuse of the H1B system?, and 2) what portion of H1B salaries ends up back in the US economy vs. abroad? The net effect for the overall economy is only going to be better under the current H1B system if companies reinvest their profits into productive uses, which they haven't been [1].…

And if H1B workers spend their earnings in the US instead of sending that money back home. What? They're spending no money on rent, food or taxes? How's that possible? And what about the Americans who save their money?

It's a matter of amounts, not of yes/no. Of course they pay rent and buy food, but in what comparative amounts? If you send half of your money outside the country, where very little of it makes its way back to supporting the US economy, that's worse than if your salary was given to someone who was going to use it all inside the US. If you disagree with that, please provide some numbers for us to use as examples.

Also, please point me to these Americans who save their money. The average domestic savings rate is 5.7% and almost all of that is money stored in US bank accounts and stocks, which in turn is used to help the US economy.