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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#461

Post by [deleted] »

sspiff wrote: post #260
Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

I think the Swiss system is pretty good, but I don't know about the Swiss people. Are they smarter than other citizens? Are they less vulnerable to populist propaganda? I also think this is something that works best on "smaller" scales - that is, not on the scale of France, or the UK, or Germany, but on the scale of Switzerland, Luxemburg, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, ...

[deleted]

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#462

Post by _nalply »

tamana wrote: post #21
_nalply wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to direct democracy. The Swiss also had protest votes which actually passed.

A non binding referendum is not direct democracy.

Right. Formally you are correct.

However effectively the Brexit vote is an expression of sovereignty of the populace. It's about power. Why? Because some parliament members are afraid to oppose the outcome.

Of course some things are different from the Swiss direct democracy. First the votes aren't ordained by politicians as a gamble but are set in motion by predefined rules in constitution and law. Second, the federal minister (Bundesrat) who has «lost» a vote doesn't retire like Mr. Cameron. Quite the opposite: everybody expects that he obeys the people and takes over to try to find the best way. Like a child who has to obey its parents and can't retire if he disagrees.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#463

Post by Analemma_ »

pmelendez wrote: post #435
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? I have been reflecting about this for a long time (as Venezuelan I witnessed how people can be manipulated and divided easily) I have this crazy idea that countries should provide a "voting license" that would require the study of the matter to be chosen previous to the election process. The motto should the…

Unfortunately, this proposal has its own set of problems. The southern United States had such a system for a long time, and in practice its only use was to keep black people from voting. I doubt that exact problem would happen again, but "voting licenses" come fraught with peril that they will be used to keep out the opinions of the "undesirables", whatever they may be at the moment.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#464

Post by sliverstorm »

manarth wrote: post #436
ultramancool wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to imply they didn't "make a wise decision" or perhaps that your political opposition is stupid?

This is being widely reported: "The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support". > "According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit." > "Those with no education tended to vote Brexit" Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how.…

That doesn't really mean "smart people vote for remain", could just as easily be because EU membership has different impact for different classes.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#465

Post by _audakel »

Going out on a tangent - Would California be more successful leaving the US as an independent country?

As things stand, California is currently the eighth largest economy in the world on their own. 17 of the top 30 U.S. tech companies are in California, which should come as no surprise. Tourism, entertainment, biotech, and agriculture are multibillion dollar industries already. Aerospace and defense contracts still rake in around $25bn a year. And many state business leaders are increasingly showing a real commitment to renewable energy.

Overall, while I believe there is definitely more potential for a social democratic style of government if California were its own country, the changes would not be that drastic. Barring a major collapse, California would, like Canada, still remain in the U.S.'s economic and cultural shadow. And who knows? Secession might be the best thing to happen to other states like Texas, New York, and Massachusetts. Who else would be capable of filling the void left in the energy, media, and technology industries? There is certainly upside in such a move but also a great deal of risk.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#466

Post by throwaway2048 »

scourge wrote: post #442
matthewmacleod wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ridiculously reductive to claim that improving income inequality is a Stalinist policy.

what did your parent comment say and why was it flagged?

go to your profile and turn on showdead if you want to see it.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#467

Post by flubert »

mikeash wrote: post #379
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I thought it was remarkable that the course of an entire nation can be so greatly changed by a 51.9% victory in a single vote. Seems like such an important change should require a supermajority of some sort. (And, of course, the original choice to join ought to have as well.) People are fickle and easily divided. For normal elections, we hold them regularly, and that gives people a chance to correct their mistakes or…

I'm wondering if someone can fill us in on the history of the UK's entrance into the EU. Was there a vote at all? It seems complicated by the whole European Community thing.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#468

Post by jacquesm »

Spooky23 wrote: post #325
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I think it's too easy to get lost in the details. Look at the map. London wanted in. Scotland wanted in. The rest of the country is dissatisfied with their state and want out. Look at the US map and you see similar things. You can call the populace stupid and ignorant, but by doing so you're displaying your own form of ignorance. Lots of facts and figures and economic models can be used to say that everything is just…

The major fallacy at work here is that in-or-out may not be correlated with solving the problems of the dissatisfied portion. Out may well make their problems worse rather than to improve their state.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#470

Post by twinkletwinkle »

bllguo wrote: post #139

I'm confident in the future this will be a case study on the failings of democracy. I absolutely do not believe all 52% of leave voters realized the economic repercussions.

Maybe they had an idea and don't care? http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c1adcce2-397e-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8e...

"the piles of ballot papers told their own story about those parts of Britain that felt comfortable in a modern, connected world, and those which felt cut off from the fruits of globalisation. Voters in London and Scotland, the two most prosperous parts of the UK, turned out in large numbers to deliver a clear message that they wanted to remain in the EU and its huge single market. But elsewhere — in the old industrial centres of the north, the small towns of the Midlands and the faded seaside resorts — the ballot papers were stacked high in favour of Leave, rejection of an establishment that had let them down."

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