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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#461

Post by Unklejoe »

techabuse wrote: post #450
Unklejoe wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite the accomplishment, and is by far not the norm. I am 25 and have only been financially independent since 23, and even I am the anomaly amongst my peers. I don't see what's wrong with my stereotype in this case. Most people under 25 are not financially independent, and it's mainly due to the society we live in, not the children themselves. When my Dad was growing up, people had full time jobs at 16 years…

I see plenty wrong with the stereotype. I've been on my own since 17, too. I'm 28 now. In that time I've worked at nearly every job you can imagine, with no parents to beg money from or go back home to live with. I know what grinding poverty feels like, and how it's all the worse when you actually have a full time job. Doesn't mean I wasn't financially independent. There's lots of us in the same boat. I eventually gr…

I'm not trying to condescend people who aren't financially independent. Maybe the use of the word "children" wasn't the best, because I can see how it gives off that vibe. I am just pointing out what I have observed.

Most people at the age of 23 are not in a position to support themselves yet, which is kind of off-topic w.r.t my original point anyway.

The fact that there are people like you who were able to work hard and make good things happen at a young age doesn't nullify the fact that the average 23 year old is still dependent on their parents.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#462

Post by techabuse »

newjersey wrote: post #284
creshal wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries have dozens to hundreds of government programs (a dozen federal, a dozen per state, another dozen per city, …) to support parents of underage children. You'd get rid of a lot of administrative overhead by outphasing all of them in favour of including children into basic income (maybe at a fixed reduced rate if expenses are a concern).

No, I'd rather we raise the basic income for every adult enough to the point where the adult can support themselves and ONE (1) child at least for bare necessities like food and shelter. For what it is worth, I don't think anyone sane would have kids to get money. In fact, you couldn't pay me to have children and raise them. I know what a shitty brat I've been and I'm sure if God or karma exists, I'll get an equally…

>I know what a shitty brat I've been and I'm sure if God or karma exists, I'll get an equally shitty child or worse I'll make a very shitty parent.

Man, that kept me up many a night before my kid was born! She turned out to be amazing, though. Definitely didn't get it from me.

We had to rely on EBT (food stamps) and Medicaid when she was little and we were both in college. Medicaid was amazing, at least for someone who couldn't afford to go to a doctor for a decade or more beforehand, but besides that perk the welfare benefits for having a child basically balanced out the increased costs of raising one. Can't say how well this would scale with n+1 kids though.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#463

Post by smaddox »

bane wrote: post #277
deanCommie wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fewer working mothers can find child care, fewer laborers to mow your lawn, fewer nurses, fewer teachers, etc. First of all, even if the people in positions like this were only working for sustenance and UBI provides it for them, it doesn't mean some wouldn't want to continue working to make even MORE money. UBI is a baseline, not welfare. If previously a lawn mowing job was only enough for rent and food, maybe now…

Your arguments are interesting, but they hold only in systems with artificial inflation controls. UBI increases the amount of money in the economy, which has the same effect as simply printing more, thus the value (scarcity) of the money decreases. A poor mother without UBI will be a poor mother with UBI because costs will simply go up, something you acknowledge. As costs for services go up, costs of products go up a…

UBI would only cause inflation if 1) it is not covered by taxes, 2) production does not increase in proportion, and 3) debt does not decrease in proportion. It is extremely likely that a combination of 1, 2, and 3 will keep inflation in check. Ideally, 3 would dominate, because that would greatly dampen the business cycle (i.e. the boom and bust cycle).

The potential for number 3 is the reason I think UBI is a macroeconomic necessity. Currently, our monetary system is based almost entirely on debt; only if that debt (private+public) grows is there an incentive to invest and further grow the economy. When the country and its citizens reduce their debt load, the currency deflates, which distinctivises investment and growth---a depression. With UBI, we could potentially replace this system with a much more stable and robust one, while simultaneously eliminating poverty and poor working conditions.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#464

Post by Unklejoe »

techabuse wrote: post #450
Unklejoe wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite the accomplishment, and is by far not the norm. I am 25 and have only been financially independent since 23, and even I am the anomaly amongst my peers. I don't see what's wrong with my stereotype in this case. Most people under 25 are not financially independent, and it's mainly due to the society we live in, not the children themselves. When my Dad was growing up, people had full time jobs at 16 years…

I see plenty wrong with the stereotype. I've been on my own since 17, too. I'm 28 now. In that time I've worked at nearly every job you can imagine, with no parents to beg money from or go back home to live with. I know what grinding poverty feels like, and how it's all the worse when you actually have a full time job. Doesn't mean I wasn't financially independent. There's lots of us in the same boat. I eventually gr…

But what I was really getting at is that there is a certain level of judgement/wisdom that is obtained by working hard and living on your own/supporting yourself.

This can be learned at any age (as pointed out by my comment about my Dad working at the age of 16). However, many people today are not exposed to these types of desicions until after they get done school, which is usually at the age of 23.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#465

Post by clavalle »

morgante wrote: post #404
Unklejoe wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social security works basically the same way in the USA. Once a system like that is in place, it's very hard to stop the pipeline. I honestly don't see the purpose of that type of system either. Why create this pipeline of money anyway? Why not just take the contributions that everyone makes and put them into individual retirement accounts? Assuming the system is stable (which it's probably not), it seems there would…

I despise social security, mainly because it's a wealth transfer tool masquerading as retirement savings. I would love to eliminate it and have everyone just save their own money. The reason that it's not done that way is three-fold: (a) People's contributions are not enough to cover their social security. Instead, they depend on the current workers paying in more than the previous generation did (in a perpetual cycl…

>I despise social security, mainly because it's a wealth transfer tool

Wealth transfer is not necessarily a bad thing.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#466

Post by maaku »

Unklejoe wrote: post #315
goda90 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or instead, give it universally to children, but require a certain percentage be saved in some sort of fund that they are given full control of when they turn 18. That way the parents don't have to shoulder all of the expense of a child, but the child isn't screwed over by irresponsible parents either.

Cool idea. I'd advocate for an age of 25 though. An 18 year old these days is still a child. Give them a couple years into the drinking age to get their bad decisions out of the way.

Mildly related, but for a while I've felt we should change the age of majority / self responsibility to age 25. It would improve a lot of things about society...

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#467

Post by morgante »

clavalle wrote: post #465
morgante wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I despise social security, mainly because it's a wealth transfer tool masquerading as retirement savings. I would love to eliminate it and have everyone just save their own money. The reason that it's not done that way is three-fold: (a) People's contributions are not enough to cover their social security. Instead, they depend on the current workers paying in more than the previous generation did (in a perpetual cycl…

>I despise social security, mainly because it's a wealth transfer tool Wealth transfer is not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't mind some wealth transfer from the rich to the poor. It's generational wealth transfer (including from poor youth to wealthy elderly) that I oppose.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#468

Post by beachstartup »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #356
bane wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except not if my lawn care cost goes up too much, I'll just fire my lawn guy and do it myself. I'm not holding a gun to my lawn guy's head to coerce him in any way. This is what he chose to do to make money, in the face of all other money making opportunities. If he took another job or income source tomorrow, and simply didn't show up again and didn't let me know, I have no power or authority to get him back behind a…

You're might not be holding a gun to his head, but at the end of the debt collection chain there is more than enough coercion and disenfranchisement to keep people doing things they don't want to do.

you know, most people in the US are capitalist. if you want to push the idea of a basic income, it's probably not a good idea to get all communist-y and stuff.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#469

Post by clavalle »

eru wrote: post #365
PietdeVries wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm... So with everyone getting free money, including the children, there is no need for a father to take care of the family when he decides to diforce, right? Afterall, the family gets a good deal of income even when daddy is gone. So marriage will no longer be a bond forever, it will be a bond until something nicer comes along since there is no financial penalty anymore: no pressure to stay together for the kids. M…

Equally snarky: Is a family that's only together for the money worth keeping around?

It's worked for my family in a slightly different context.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#470

Post by marknutter »

clarkmoody wrote: post #456
criley2 wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. Consumption taxes destroy the middle class by acting as vehicle to transport wealth from the middle to the ultrawealthy, which makes it surprising that people continue to suggest it. Now perhaps a consumption tax combined with a large capital gains tax and inheritance tax -- to keep taxes going in the oligarchs economy AND the regular…

What about the consumption taxes we have on the books? Gas tax? Hugely regressive. Wouldn't liberals support additional carbon taxes? Value-added tax? Wouldn't those continue to "destroy the middle class"? What about the tax of inflation that serves to redistribute wealth from savers to debtors? (middle class -> government) Also interesting how you know better than others how they should arrange their financial lives…

Or cigarettes? Or lottery tickets? Or the AMA penalty?
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