Earlier quoted context omitted.
jolla uses systemd on their phones and tablets right now. IIRC it's also part of some soon to be shipping vehicle integrations, for in-car entertainment systems and mapping.
That doesn't make systemd right for the other hundreds/thousands of embedded Linux systems. If you recall my response elsewhere in the thread, "Company X uses it" is unconvincing. Also, it's inevitable that if systemd and software expecting to use it take over more and more aspects of userland and the kernel, vendors will be left with no choice but to use it as well. So "more vendors are switching to systemd" is not…
Systemd redux: The end of Linux
451–460 of 464 posts
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#452Earlier quoted context omitted.
His response seems perfectly reasonable to me - even more so after reading that whole exchange. Why should the Systemd team pay the overhead - in terms of complicating their code - to work around incompatibilities in another libc that will also affect portability of a lot of other Linux software?
The same reason most other project accept trivial patches like that: it's not actually a cost or complication, and helping compatibility and interoperability in the software ecosystem is a good thing. We're not talking about asking for some new work to be done. We're not talking about any kind of change to how the project works. This is about trivial changes like #defining function name that aren't even included in t…
I wish more projects would take this line.
Autoconf is the devil. It's a symptom of how broken Unix-y environments have been, and how people were willing to impart a massive maintenance cost of countless application code bases instead of either pushing their vendors to getting things right, or agreeing on common compatibility layers.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
Try using it with JACK and setting up a DAW.. then you'll see the pain.
I've had success by adding these four pre/post startup/stop scripts to qJackCtl: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PulseAudio/Examples#The... In particular for problems of getting Youtube (or any browser audio) to work while other apps use JACK directly. Although on a recent new install it seemed to work without them as well. One problem is I need to start/stop the qJackCtl thing every time my laptop comes back fr…
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
His response seems perfectly reasonable to me - even more so after reading that whole exchange. Why should the Systemd team pay the overhead - in terms of complicating their code - to work around incompatibilities in another libc that will also affect portability of a lot of other Linux software?
It's a matter of perspective. You could also say that glibc is adding incompatibilities by deviating from standards, and now systemd depends on them. I don't consider it "perfectly reasonable" that Gnome, systemd and the Linux kernel are now starting to depend on each other when previously all of these components could be exchanged for others. It's a mischaracterization to say that the systemd "shouldn't have to pay…
In this particular case, mkstemp() is not a viable replacement for mkostemp(). A proper fix is to provide mkostemp() in uClibc, or to compile with a shim that provides it.
Arguing over whether including the shim in Systemd would be acceptable would be a different matter, but parts of the patches as presented were flat out broken.
And the Linux kernel is not starting to depend on systemd or the others. The Linux kernel is moving towards demanding a single cgroups writer, and at the moment Systemd is the main contender in that space.
That Systemd is depending on Linux is unsurprising, given that they stated from the outset exactly that they were unwilling to pay the price of trying to implement generic abstractions rather than taking full advantage of the capabilities Linux offers. You may of course disagree with that decision, but frankly, for a lot of us getting a better init system for the OS we use is more important than getting some idealised variation that the BSD's could use too.
> an architecture that promotes this very lock-in to begin with.
The "architecture that promotes this very lock-in" in this case is "provide functionality that people want so badly they're prepared to introduce dependencies on systemd".
At some points enough is enough, and sub-optimal advances still end up getting adopted because the alternatives are worse. Systemd falls squarely in that category: I agree it'd be nicer if it was presented and introduced in nice small digestible separate chunks with well defined, stadardised APIs so that people could be confident in the ability to replace the various APIs. But if the alternative is remaining with the alternatives? I'll pick Systemd warts and all.
Looking at posts from the Gnome people, the original intent appears to have been to provide a narrow logind shim exactly to make it easier to replace logind/systemd with something else. If someone feels strongly enough to come up with a viable shim or an alternative API that can talk to both systemd and other systems reliably, then I'd expect Gnome to be all over that exactly because they will otherwise have the headache of how to continue to support other platforms.
The problem is that Gnome already for a long time have dependend on expectations of the user session management that ConsoleKit on top of other init systems have been unable to properly meet, so Gnome has in many scenarios been subtly broken for a long time.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#455Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yet Google and Facebook keep using Linux for all their servers.
I don't recall seeing Facebook or Google have 15 years of uninterrupted service.
As long as a sufficient fraction of servers at a sufficient fraction of Verisigns clusters has an uncorrupted set of data and is able to serve responses, Verisigns TLD zones remain up.
Pretty much the only thing that can go wrong in that case, assuming you have safeguarded the integrity of the zone is bugs in components outside their direct control.
It makes 100% sense for them to focus their efforts on ensuring diversity, because the class of problems that can solve for them makes up an unusually high percentage of the possible failure classes, and the nature of the service also means that most of the potential problems that this can cause is only likely to take out some proportion of their capacity that still leaves them with a functional system, so the potential benefit is higher for them than for most with a heterogeneous, and the potential risks are lower for them than for most.
For Google and Facebook, the systems are so much more complex that the tradeoffs are vastly different.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#456Earlier quoted context omitted.
Try using it with JACK and setting up a DAW.. then you'll see the pain.
I've had success by adding these four pre/post startup/stop scripts to qJackCtl: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PulseAudio/Examples#The... In particular for problems of getting Youtube (or any browser audio) to work while other apps use JACK directly. Although on a recent new install it seemed to work without them as well. One problem is I need to start/stop the qJackCtl thing every time my laptop comes back fr…
But, also to be fair - like you, I maintain my own systems and do not overly depend on the teeming-mass-reality as a derivation of stability. My personal Linux DAW systems, running now for decades, have attained a level of productivity that I would at least hope is represented in the current niveau, vis a vis Popular Linux Distro designed for audio (e.g. pure:dyne, Arch Pro Audio, 64 Studio, UbuntuStudio, et al.) .. for the newcomer, it should of course 'all just work' from boot-up, which I hope is the case. It is for me, anyway: I've expunged pulseaudio from all of my machines, and make do with Jack. My studio uses 48-channels of digital audio, everything-is-a-file .. a working and functional DAW, thousands of plugins, about 12 MIDI devices (synthesizers/effects rack) and so on, and the best thing of all: all source code included. So, yeah .. ;)
EDIT: apropos qjackctl, yeah, apmd:
http://www.tutorialspoint.com/unix_commands/apmd.htm
.. or some such similar thing.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#457Earlier quoted context omitted.
While at the same time giving every indication that consolekit was dead. http://erickoegel.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/consolekit2/comme...
The mail from 2102 that is linked from your url contains this paragraph, wonder what happened to that plan? "Ubuntu plans to take over maintainership (more precisely Martin Pitt from Canonical), to maintain it as long as they still need it, and will change the name while doing so."
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've had success by adding these four pre/post startup/stop scripts to qJackCtl: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PulseAudio/Examples#The... In particular for problems of getting Youtube (or any browser audio) to work while other apps use JACK directly. Although on a recent new install it seemed to work without them as well. One problem is I need to start/stop the qJackCtl thing every time my laptop comes back fr…
To be fair, the only reason to run Pulseaudio is "everyone else is" - i.e. its fully glommed into the distro. ALSA and Jack have been stable for a lot of people, even before Lennart decided to tackle 'all the problems'. But, also to be fair - like you, I maintain my own systems and do not overly depend on the teeming-mass-reality as a derivation of stability. My personal Linux DAW systems, running now for decades, ha…
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had no opinion on systemd until yesterday. In fact I had a glace or two at the code and it's pretty clean and I liked the rough objectives laid out. I installed CentOS 7 on a machine last night that we're replacing CentOS 6 on and was poked in the face with timedatectl and dbus problems for an entire hour, some of which were intermittent. Debugging these issues is a horrific pain. I lost 4 hours on it. I've never l…
You know this is funny, I remember reading comments EXACTLY like this about 3-4 years ago but with pulseaudio in place of systemd. Pulseaudio was Lennart's previous project. It broke everything in linux sound for a while, everybody moaned and hated it and said it was the worst thing since the crucifixion of Christ. Yet, name one problem you had with sound on linux in the past year? There are very few. Pulseaudio now…
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#460Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't recall seeing Facebook or Google have 15 years of uninterrupted service.
It's an unfair comparison in any case: DNS is "trivial" to keep up compared to even small fractions of Facebook and Google's infrastructure. As long as a sufficient fraction of servers at a sufficient fraction of Verisigns clusters has an uncorrupted set of data and is able to serve responses, Verisigns TLD zones remain up. Pretty much the only thing that can go wrong in that case, assuming you have safeguarded the i…