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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of intelligence agencies is to spy on non-citizens, both in peacetime and in wartime. One might argue that traditionally they focused on public figures in the foreign states and that spying on average foreigners is new; I don't know if that's true, but seems plausible. It would generally be a dereliction of duty for the NSA/CIA to not spy on non-Americans. The same holds true, modulo agency name and count…

> The purpose of intelligence agencies is to spy on non-citizens, both in peacetime and in wartime. No, the purpose of intelligence agencies is to gather and analyze information that might be of use to the nations leaders. Spying -- whether on citizens or foreigners, and whether on people located within the country or abroad -- is often a mechanism used to gather information (though collection from public sources is…

You are correct - I overspecialized in my comment (and focused too much on the US, which attempts to separate domestic and foreign intelligence)- but I would argue that espionage is a signature of intelligence agencies and their efforts; expecting such agencies not to make significant espionage efforts doesn't really cohere with reality.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#452
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there isn't! You might all feel that your government is misrepresenting you, but until serious action is taken, nothing is going to change. What that serious action is, I have no idea. Other countries have dealt with oppressive regimes before, some better than others.

But that's the thing, the government has strayed so far from the people that a) it's obvious they aren't going to seriously consider the people's will other than window dressing, and therefore b) the only way this kind of thing will change is through revolution. And we're far from revolution, if ever. The gap is there.

Replying to jsmeaton

Indeed! They should be on the streets!

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but spying at non-US citizens and breaking foreign law in peacetime is deemed acceptable. First let me say that I agree with your sentiment -- it's hypocritical for people in the US to be upset about the US government's spying on its own citizens, but not upset when the people are in other countries. Now for a dose of realism -- every single country out there that has a foreign policy and interests abroad behaves in…

> every single country out there that has a foreign policy and interests abroad behaves in this way to one extent or another. I'm German, and I can't remember ever having heard such a distinction - that some things are okay when done to foreigners, but not when done to Germans - apart from neo-nazis. Sure, who knows what the BND is up to. But "behaving this way" also includes rhetoric that is not just considered acce…

Really ? How about :

German soldiers abroad (say, in Afghanistan). Do they respect foreign law ? Of course not. Non-EU residents on German soil are subject to summary arrest and deportation (it's more complex than this, I know, but as summaries go you could do worse) German social security treats citizens, residents and illegal aliens vastly differently German domestic wiretapping laws are basically that the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight AND outside of Germany. While it's of course true that this is not a distinction, it's actually worse than US law. German wiretapping laws do not let companies evaluate the legality of a wiretapping order before complying, unlike US law. Telecom companies operating in Germany are forced to provide the government with an automated system that can wiretap anyone on their networks without even their technicians knowing about who/what is being wiretapped. Needless to say, these systems are in constant use, and have been expanded. Small detail : in the US, the government will at least pay companies appropriately (handsomely even) for costs related to wiretapping. In Germany (like most of the EU) companies have to comply, fund it themselves, and can't even look at the orders. Non-compliance with this is punishable under criminal law (meaning the CEO, techies, field techs, or anyone in the telco can be arrested if the company refuses to comply) The BND does not just have the right to spy on anyone, but it can summarily arrest anyone, intervene in any investigation without question (so they could, for example, kill someone, then take over the investigation, no questions asked). They can confiscate any goods, on German soil and outside of it, without so much as an explanation. They aren't even the only government department in Germany that has this power, the tax office has the same power.

As an EU citizen myself, I find the EU's "anger" at US spying somewhere between moronic and hypocritical. Especially France's is beyond all comparison, knowing that they just physically arrested someone for refusing to store all records of his customer's transmissions for a full year, entirely on his own dime. Furthermore, both France and Germany have used the information they force ISPs to spy for them to enforce copyrights. Neither country has any qualms about sending all citizen's internet traffic to a private organisation that is not answerable to the government at all, and is not even attempting to enforce criminal law (the NSA is at least doing this to prevent real crime, like 9/11. Germany and France are transmitting everyone's internet usage to an organisation so it could sue them for copyright infringement in an automated fashion. There's just no comparison)

Note that furthermore, in the EU, these practices have been voted in by a non-democratically elected government (the EU commission). So the EU can't even claim that parliament approved these measures, because they didn't (barring a few exceptions). This has been imposed by people negotiating "international treaties".

Can anyone please explain to me why, if there's outrage about the NSA, why isn't there 10x the outrage about EU practices ? The way it is makes absolutely no sense.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/mmp/jimmy-carter.htm Apparently the procedure is to position the USS Jimmy Carter over the cable, send out a remote vehicle to grab the cable and pull it up to the sub, splice in tapping equipment, and then drop the cable. Intercontinental cables are less than one inch in diameter in deep water. If the sub plants the tap in deep water, it's extremely unlikely that anyone would ever discove…

> There are a few cable repair ships that pull broken cables to the surface and fix them, but other than that... No one can reach it and no one will bother it. Even if you pull the cable up to repair it, it is unlikely that you would discover the tap. The device used in Operation Ivy Bells was designed to detach from the cable if the cable was lifted. Non-intrustive tapping might not be possible with fiber (it isn't,…

Why is the traffic in the fiber cables not encrypted between the endpoints? That would instantly nullify the attacks. Is AES hardware not cheap enough yet?

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#456
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you think that's so easy to do. You need a person who: 1. Has the technical credentials and interviewing skills to get hired at Google (not easy). 2. Has a security clearance. 3. Wants to be a spy. 4. Can get themselves assigned to the team working on datacenter interconnects. 5. Can set up a tap on the interconnect without getting caught. That sounds both hard and expensive to me.

Consider Sally Smith, our hypothetical employee. She worked for several government and military agencies for years with a concentration in data center security. She has top-secret clearance. Before the Snowden revelations came out, I'd have strongly considered Sally Smith to be a good fit for a position dealing with data center security. Who wouldn't have?! Years of experience at high levels securing data centers? Le…

The Google hiring process seems to be very focused on discerning a candidate's practical knowledge not their on paper experience or recommendations. It would be silly to think that a general or senior government official would even have the technical knowledge to make a well informed recommendation of someone for a technical position.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#457

If I scroll the Reddit frontpage (without being logged in), I am not seeing any NSA stories, despite being on the top of /r/WorldNews, /r/news, etc. Anyone know the story behind that?

/r/worldnews is no longer a default sub, so none of its posts appear on logged-out frontpage anyways.

The posters above apparently show me to be wrong, so I guess /r/worldnews is still a default.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a US citizen. Born and bred. And, at this point, I can't in good faith say that I would blame you. I think it's pretty safe to say that getting rid of a President is no longer enough. My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government. And appear unassailable. I doubt very much that we, the American People, could even IDENTIFY the people setting…

No. Sorry. The President does bear full responsibility. That's the nature of the job. If he wants to claim he wasn't aware, OK. But he is now and it's his responsibility to fix it. Again, that's the nature of the job. If the President wanted to eliminate these programs, they'd get eliminated. It would require the exercise of political will, but it absolutely could be done. The problem, actually, is right here, when p…

Maybe I'm not being clear.

My assertion is that trust has broken down. And therefore the ability to validate has broken down.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the President and the Congress eliminate these programs...

How would you or I... or any foreign person validate that?

How would I, in good faith, tell a foreign person, or even another citizen, that their communications are no longer being monitored?

I don't believe we could give such assurances.

So even in the BEST case where the President and the politicians eliminate the programs... we would not be able to assert in good faith that there is no longer any communications monitoring going on.

The flaw in your idea, is that it is predicated on trust in the system.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree the NSA's conduct is outrageous you seem to be confused about how countries actually work. Every country treats non-citizens worse than citizens - fewer rights and benefits, more limited (if any) work opportunities, additional hassles, etc. And most countries have intelligence agencies that spy on foreign countries and their citizens often in ways that break foreign laws. Don't be so naive.

There are of course differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens and this for good reasons like controlling immigration. But there should be no differences when it comes to human rights including privacy rights and this is what I complain about - different treatment as to human rights. And this goes beyond spying and also includes for example torturing people in Guantanamo. And yes, not only the US are b…

This is the hypocracy we all accept as OK. If citizens are barred from travelling internally we call it a human rights violation (USSR, China). If foreigners are barred from travelling between countries we call it "important reasons - immigration control". Same with spying, assasination, torture, killing civilians in war, etc. Human rights don't apply to non-citizens of just about any country.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but spying at non-US citizens and breaking foreign law in peacetime is deemed acceptable. First let me say that I agree with your sentiment -- it's hypocritical for people in the US to be upset about the US government's spying on its own citizens, but not upset when the people are in other countries. Now for a dose of realism -- every single country out there that has a foreign policy and interests abroad behaves in…

> every single country out there that has a foreign policy and interests abroad behaves in this way to one extent or another. I'm German, and I can't remember ever having heard such a distinction - that some things are okay when done to foreigners, but not when done to Germans - apart from neo-nazis. Sure, who knows what the BND is up to. But "behaving this way" also includes rhetoric that is not just considered acce…

Sure, who knows what the BND is up to.

Just a reminder:

"In an interview with Der Spiegel , Snowden claimed that the NSA provided German intelligence, with analysis tools to help the organisation monitor data flowing through Germany. “The NSA people are in bed together with the Germans,"” he told the magazine.

He added that the NSA’s foreign affairs directorate, which is responsible for relations with other countries, had set up a system whereby political leaders “could be insulated” from the backlash if spying became public and helped to play down how grievously they were “violating global privacy.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nsa-in-bed-wi...

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