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A Difficult Situation

blog.sendgrid.com

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Re: A Difficult Situation

#451

Post by jennyjenjen »

oelmekki wrote: post #450
cletus wrote: post #318

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. The fact is that what you do reflects on your employer to a degree. If you're a developer evangelist, that's quite a high degree, particularly if you drag them into your public spat. Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract becau…

> Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is much the same. Indeed, community manager (call that evangelist if you want to) is a weird job. You're supposed to be social, natural - to be as you would be in private life. In cases like these, you're even supposed to use your own identity to support the brand…

Ah, two great points: 1) the difficulty / contradictions in community manager / evangelist jobs, and 2) free speech in the US.

I am not sure where you are from - France, judging by the hour, grammar, punctuation? - but after living outside the US and having the luxury of observing my home country from the outside, I have found that free speech is not treated with as much value as we seem to claim. Some would say that free speech in the US is very much threatened nowadays.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#452

Post by penrod »

jk4930 wrote: post #297
shantanubala wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I should have been more clear: the definition is fuzzy, but Adria's original tweet is not inherently wrong -- it just lacks context and adequate explanation. I'm definitely not an expert in this, but I'm speaking from reading books on sociology and dominant group psychology. It would take more time for me to look up the original sources, but Wikipedia does agree with me (and they also agree that the definitio…

These definitions aren't scientific but politicized. They come from activists with a PhD. They just want to "prove" that capitalism is imperialist and racist.

Quite. The purpose of twisting the definition of 'racism' is to use the emotional power of the term to support an unrelated political agenda. The irony is that the academic definition of 'racism' is only rhetorically useful as long as the common definition remains dominant, otherwise all resonance is lost: Jim Crow and slavery cause universal revulsion; industrious individuals accruing wealth, not so much.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#453

Post by oelmekki »

jennyjenjen wrote: post #451
oelmekki wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is much the same. Indeed, community manager (call that evangelist if you want to) is a weird job. You're supposed to be social, natural - to be as you would be in private life. In cases like these, you're even supposed to use your own identity to support the brand…

Ah, two great points: 1) the difficulty / contradictions in community manager / evangelist jobs, and 2) free speech in the US. I am not sure where you are from - France, judging by the hour, grammar, punctuation? - but after living outside the US and having the luxury of observing my home country from the outside, I have found that free speech is not treated with as much value as we seem to claim. Some would say that…

France indeed. And sorry for the grammar ;)

Re: A Difficult Situation

#454

Post by erikpukinskis »

bluehat wrote: post #247
erikpukinskis wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I don't understand. What is this "rift"? What is the chasm, and why is anyone on the side across from her?

The action was the public humiliation of somebody she disagreed with (as he made a sexual joke and she found it inappropriate) rather than handling the matter quietly. The consequential actions included: leaving a number of her own sexual jokes on twitter, making her seem hypocritical, bringing her employer into the fray as agreeing with her actions (probably without their permission), posting a blog post where she a…

How is it humiliation to repost a joke someone made in public? If he's humiliated didn't he do that to himself?

Re: A Difficult Situation

#455

Post by penrod »

devilshaircut wrote: post #445
xshoppyx wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was drinking with an Asian co-worker at work today and something somewhat relevant came up. A 3rd coworker asked my Asian coworker "Are you ok? Your face is red and puffy". And then he stated that Asians (saying all Asians is probably a generalization, but for this example let's assume it is true) lack an enzyme to process alcohol and that Asians are essentially allergic to alcohol. Under this definition, would it…

"they never evolved to possess the same enzyme" ... what? Asians are the same species as every other race. The idea that Asians somehow did not evolve this particular thing has nothing to do with the genetic change over time that causes speciation/evolution. I think you grossly misunderstand evolution and that your remarks are ignorant (and I think many people would claim racist).

Nice use of the R-bomb there. And adroit use of weasel words ("some would claim") to give plausible deniability.

Unfortunately your objections make no sense. It's well established that some human subgroups have different physical adaptations (eg. lactase production) that have been naturally selected in the presence of local food sources or production methods. How is that unrelated to evolution?

Re: A Difficult Situation

#456

Post by QuantumGood »

If the joke teller was not fired by Playhaven, Anon would likely not have attacked SendGrid, Ms. Richards would likely not have been fired either, and there would be far, far less controversy overall to discuss.

So the incident that leveraged the situation into such a huge controversy was the firing by Playhaven.

And Playhaven has stated "we will not comment on all the factors that contributed to our parting ways," strongly implying there were factors in addition to the joke telling that led to the firing.

This also implies that without those additional, unnamed factors, the individual may not have been fired.

So the catalyst that caused a situation that seemingly did not need to spiral out of control were those hidden factors, that no one is commenting much about, because no one knows what they are.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#457

Post by jennyjenjen »

oelmekki wrote: post #453
jennyjenjen wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, two great points: 1) the difficulty / contradictions in community manager / evangelist jobs, and 2) free speech in the US. I am not sure where you are from - France, judging by the hour, grammar, punctuation? - but after living outside the US and having the luxury of observing my home country from the outside, I have found that free speech is not treated with as much value as we seem to claim. Some would say that…

France indeed. And sorry for the grammar ;)

Not a bad thing; it is actually quite good. It is more that French speakers compose things certain ways :)

Re: A Difficult Situation

#458

Post by doktrin »

ForrestN wrote: post #327
powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable. First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online. Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. I am not in a position…

> Taking a photograph of someone in a public place and reporting what they said within earshot, without any expectation of privacy, does not warrant vitriol.

FWIW, the prospect of being overheard for a passing comment and subsequently slandered all over Twitter is rather terrifying. I suspect many contributors here can easily see themselves in the shoes of the dev who was canned, and therefore perceive Adria's actions as unreasonable.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#459

Post by doktrin »

obstacle1 wrote: post #381
ForrestN wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable. First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online. Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. I am not in a position…

>Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. Erm, I don't know that I see that. I presume you mean the anonymous-handle twitter/facebook vitriol? Yeah, that's just what internet forum kids do. Every time a trainwreck happens. And disagreeing with Adria do…

> And disagreeing with Adria doesn't automatically place one in the same camp as them, or "align" one with them.

A certain "if you're not with us you're against us" rhetoric has been bandied about here recently, effectively implying that any who voice opposition, or fail to actively defend, Adria are somehow complicit to the vitriolic hate speech seen on Twitter / FB or wherever. This is not really a logical leap to make, and only serves to further divide the community.

It should be perfectly acceptable to voice rational viewpoints without fear of being associated with extremist groups. Logical discussion is a hallmark of this forum, and I would hate to see it disappear to fear and paranoia.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#460

Post by eloisant »

georgeorwell wrote: post #394
cletus wrote: post #318

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. The fact is that what you do reflects on your employer to a degree. If you're a developer evangelist, that's quite a high degree, particularly if you drag them into your public spat. Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract becau…

> I'm honestly surprised that anyone is [...] defending Ms Richards Even though I think she messed up in a big way, that there wasn't sexism, that she is a hypocrite, and that she really kept asking for it, much of the aggressive abuse directed at Adria Richards since the initial event has been totally out of control, and would count as criminal hate in some countries. For starters, look at the comments on her Facebo…

I agree that the reactions and backlash she got were way beyond the line and not deserved.

But that doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't have done what she did, and as a Sendgrid customer I believe they took the right decision.

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