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GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

ckardaris.com

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Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#451

Post by _the_inflator »

johnwatson11218 wrote: post #445

Isn't this the perfect use case for LLM driven code refactoring? Hey AI - Here is an app with poorly implemented keyboard shortcuts etc.. Make it adhere to this well defined standard. I think these simple fixes are where LLMs are going to really shine.

This is an interesting ACID test, because at its root hotkeys as they are usually called, are a graph structure.

And LLMs struggle a lot with kind of complexity - as we all do at a certain level, if we don't visualize it i.e. using paper and pencil to paint a picture. Then it is the smoothest thing ever.

But again, then you test it - nice loop for a LLM.

I had no success so far using LLM to sketch my database schema for graphs. I do it by hand and recommend it. Later changes can be nasty and ugly. Changes will occur, but even dry runs make Claude, ChatGPT etc. go rookie level in what they do.

Processing a table and creating a graph structure out of it - no way. And so before a LLM could work on it, it needs lots of preparation. Or we create a new benchmark category.

Sequential work is easy for LLMs now, but Graphs are domains, were they massively struggle.

Nice idea.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#452

Post by _the_inflator »

herbst wrote: post #443

When I learned Webdesign accessibility was a main factor, always. Today it seems more like the absolute exception, even Ai doesn't care about it by default. In professional work many customers were like "nah, we don't need that, we won't pay for that" I don't get how and why we evolve backwards in these things.

Hotkey usage means speed. Ironically you hinder people using their capabilities to the fullest. It also works in the other direction.

And I agree with you: Vibe Coding literally automagically includes it, and I had the notion, that you must actively advise an LLM to ignore Web Accessibility.

I understand that developers in the traditional sense were shunning the topic, but via LLM?

I never found it easier. Of course here and there you have to lead the LLM in the right direction as usually.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#453

Post by _kb »

timnetworks wrote: post #447

And it's not just for websites. Analogy: the doorframe is of a standard width so that a wheelchair can get through. This means manufacturers can make equipment that will fit in your house without calling you first! You never have to worry you bought a new refrigerator that needs to be pulled into a hole in the roof because it won't fit through the door. You never have to worry about delivering food to a grocer becaus…

Within built environment and industrial design that's termed universal design.

The canonical example is ramps on footpaths providing equivalent benefit to people in wheelchairs, parents with strollers, and commuters on bikes, scooters or skateboards. The door width example you provide is another perfect case.

There are many aspects of things we design and build where a small focus of accessibility for one group brings benefits to many.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#455

Post by sdeframond »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #435
gramie wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to keep accessibility in mind a lot in my previous job (web development for a university). The thing that I consistently found was that, the more accessible a website was, the better the experience for everyone , not just people with disabilities.

This is true in other fields too. Wheel-chair ramps are used by people with baby strollers. Subtitles work for deaf people, those who can't understand the spoken language, or simple folks in situations where someone is sleeping next to them. Pretty much every accessibility-oriented feature ends up helping out people beyond the original audience.

Baby strollers are not accounted for enough !

One might wonder (wrongly) why everyone should care about the special and expensive needs of a few (or old) people when designing public spaces.

But a majority will actually need to use these spaces with a baby stroller. Not a few. Baby strollers are a driving power of our society! Enable them!

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#456

Post by izacus »

abejora wrote: post #289
rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

This is something that we have been working on in our app, but to be honest: it is hard. At first we wanted to be completely keyboard centric, but we had to pivot away from it. There is so much to learn in this space. There are small things, like dropping a 'jump to main content anchor' before the navigation so you don't have to tab through the top navigation everytime. But there are also certain pages en layouts whi…

It's hard if you think of it as an afterthought. It's easy if you keep it in mind from the start and choose your stack and approach correctly from the start.

That's usually the problem with startup software - most if startup engineers will rather burn 10 hours coding that 1 hour thinking and choosing the right things.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#458

Post by OhNoNotAgain_99 »

umpalumpaaa wrote: post #353
Xirdus wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accessibility is just usability. all it is is making sure your product is as usable by as many people as possible. Not always. There are things that increase usability for fully abled people but decrease it for disabled people. Color-coding is a common one. Another is using smaller font size to make more info visible at once, or advanced touch gestures that can be accidentally triggered by shaky hands. Then there a…

Colors should be an OS feature. On iOS and macOS you can remap colors globally and it works in all native apps. There are presets fire the common cases: red/green issues, color blindness etc and you can make your own. This has its limitations though eg if you are not able to distinguish at least 5 or so colors… any colors.

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Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#459

Post by mrob »

madeofpalk wrote: post #444
Xirdus wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accessibility is just usability. all it is is making sure your product is as usable by as many people as possible. Not always. There are things that increase usability for fully abled people but decrease it for disabled people. Color-coding is a common one. Another is using smaller font size to make more info visible at once, or advanced touch gestures that can be accidentally triggered by shaky hands. Then there a…

> Another is using smaller font size to make more info visible at once This doesn't sound very usable to me.

Everybody has some minimum text size they're comfortable with. If you make the text bigger than that, they're forced to scroll unnecessarily, which is less usable. But the size differs from person to person, so it should be configurable. You get this automatically with web browsers and most GUI frameworks if you don't go out of your way to break it (just stick with the default font).

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#460

Post by PepegaRoach »

burnte wrote: post #259
dpark wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacOS has intentional holes in keyboard support. You have to go into settings and turn on a config for keyboard navigation to reach all elements. Apple intends for most users to navigate with a mouse. It’s in the accessibility settings. https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/...

I cannot think of a single reason these would be disabled by default other than Apple stubbornness.

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