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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#451

Post by rock_artist »

Framework in general is focused on developers. I think the general target audience is different. So the customization and OS makes a huge difference for a developer. I was excited about the Neo. But the 8GB and storage felt too limiting for development.

For daily / home/office this is where the competition is. And it’s not against the Framework.

In raw experience even with latest Swift Air, Apple has a great device benefiting from their optimized and existing production line.

We’re 5-6 years now from Apple silicon and yet the industry didn’t catch up completely.

Battery life, heat, performance and even arm64 isn’t yet a first class citizen on Linux* or Windows.

(* Linux is mostly power management assuming mobility experience is needed)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#452

Post by tjoff »

Never understood these comparisons.

If you want to run OS X, buy the mac. If not buy absolutely anything else. It is that simple.

Though with 8GB of ram both of these machines are lemons.

If you are on the fence, do not buy the mac. Because by god why would you want to trap yourself in that ecosystem.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#453

Post by h4ch1 »

pmontra wrote: post #446

A question to all developers working on 12 and 13 inches laptops. Do you spend most of your time connected to an external monitor or do you use the laptop one? My instinct is that there isn't enough space for two side by side windows of code but of course people working on 24" monitors would say the same about my 15.6" screen.

I still use a 2019 MBP and I can't work on just the laptop screen. My laptop screen usually has one fullscreen window at all times; tmux, or a browser window; all the main work gets done on the big screen.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#455

Post by princevegeta89 »

Aurornis wrote: post #18

I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed. I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models. However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499…

I think their only advantage in the business is pricing somewhat lower than comparable MacBooks and also having the option of replacing individual parts. But I think MacBooks, especially with AppleCare, are an irreplaceable deal. They cost a bit higher, but then their resale value is also quite high and they are pretty damn reliable. They even survive drops and abuse. The hardware components like speakers, camera, Wi-Fi chip, etc. are all top notch. I am happy to spend $500 extra just for peace of mind and the option to not have to deal with headaches alone. This is coming after my experience with Linux desktop and several distros on my custom-built PC that I ran for many years.

And M5 and M5 Pro are kicking the hell out of comparable ARM processors, and even their own predecessors for that matter.

And high quality software in modern computing and options only exist on the macOS platform. Windows is full of junk, otherwise it would have had some chance there. But the entire platform is far too mismanaged and it is very predatory that using the platform, the OS itself, feels like a fucking pain in the ass. I would put Linux above Windows, and while it is very complete and has a billion options and customizability, there are some pain points for me in terms of upgrades and also available software tools that I use from day to day. Many of them just don't exist for this platform.

And I am not even talking about the privacy aspect here. Obviously, macOS is more friendly in that sense, and that gives them another vote on top of these existing votes already.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#456

Post by consp »

kvuj wrote: post #272
trouve_search wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using an asus zenbook 14 OLED with linux. Compatibility is great. The screen blows apple out completely. It's clearly, obviously better. The fan noise and battery life are worse than Apple. The keyboard feels better to type on, the trackpad is slightly worse, but not enough to annoy me. The new Pop OS cosmic is a very fun OS concept for laptops with the autotiling workspaces as a fundamental primitive.

From a quick search online, the max brightness of your laptop is 400 nits SDR and 500 HDR. My M5 MacBook Pro is 1000 and 1500 nits. Screen brightness is not something I will compromise on after having a taste of greatness. I personally wouldn't mind spending 30-40% more for a Linux laptop with similar qualities + repairability. But I will not settle for something much more expensive and worst in some aspects. There a…

The Framework philosophy was never that it was going to be cheaper.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#457

Post by tumult »

teaearlgraycold wrote: post #247
drnick1 wrote: post #137

The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report telemetry to Apple, upload anything to any "cloud" or request that I log into something. If you don't think this is a big deal, wait until an age or identity verification law is passed somewhere, and Apple will enforce it against your will, on the computer that y…

> I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission Does this happen on MacOS? I don’t think I’ve experienced this.

They did once try forcing macOS 12 users to update to macOS 14, without asking for permission, and overriding any security prompts: https://eclecticlight.co/2024/02/12/can-you-avoid-a-forced-u...

This happened to me. I was able to notice it from network activity lights and stop it by disconnecting the network. Other people I know weren't so lucky.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#458

Post by thefossguy69 »

majormajor wrote: post #438
thefossguy69 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

> For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me. This is a very weird-sounding take to someone who has used Macs for three decades and recalls that for most of that time they never even had a full-screen mode. Apple's desktop experience DNA is still, for better or worse, deeply anchored to spati…

>> For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me.

> This is a very weird-sounding take to someone who has used Macs for three decades and recalls that for most of that time they never even had a full-screen mode.

Sorry about that. I should've clarified better. What I meant was that Apple's opinion of an ideal desktop is closely matching a cluttered desk where only the owner knows the position of something and the focus shifts back and forth from one primary task to another task/interruption.

Edit: typos

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#459

Post by johanyc »

afavour wrote: post #3

Eh, I think the framing isn't quite right here. The Neo is a wonderful machine but if you want to upgrade it you're out of luck, the damn thing is sealed shut. By comparison the Framework lets you upgrade individual components over time to keep your system up to date without buying a whole new one. Maybe that doesn't matter for the godson. But it's an important differentiator: the Framework is a (semi) premium produc…

the apple way to upgrade is to sell your old neo and buy neo 2. I wonder if the math changes when we take long term use into account

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#460

Post by wwalexander »

thefossguy69 wrote: post #424
commandersaki wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny it’s the opposite for me. What if I want to switch between desktops of multiple users; easy with fast user switching, not really a thing in Linux (yeah I’m sure it can be hacked up, but bleh).

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts

Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i...

You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

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