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We've made the world too complicated

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Re: We've made the world too complicated

#451

Post by notahacker »

scheeseman486 wrote: post #439
notahacker wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're downthread of someone moaning about the complexity of a world which requires him to understand sidewalks, strangers and rooms he isn't allowed to enter. Doesn't feel like paper is any more intuitive or 'natural' at any level than those, and tbh if I don't have to understand it well enough to understand how it's made, glass-walled skyscrapers really aren't complicated either...

> glass-walled skyscrapers really aren't complicated either Until they become a focusing mirror that turns into a gigantic magnifying glass, see: the Walkie Talkie building. Evidently, glass buildings are hard enough that even with hundreds of engineers, there still ends up being second order effects that are unaccounted for in many designs. Building a skyscraper with glass windows means understanding the physics of…

Well yeah, designing them is hard, even making the glass is hard. Similarly, ancient civilization was full of buildings whose constructors did very complex things but didn't understand the second order effects and artisans that spent a lifetime honing their skills to work on it. But anyone that can dismiss them as uncomplicated because they're just stone shouldn't need to worry too much about the engineers and digital models and processes behind the glass ones either.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#452

Post by NonHyloMorph »

LittleBox wrote: post #432
keiferski wrote: post #49

I think this feeling of everything being too complex is a natural consequence of work that is done for long-term abstract ends, rather than immediate and local ones. At least I think it is for me. Working remotely for an international software company is great for its lifestyle flexibility, but sometimes I just want to be a baker, chef, bike repairman, etc. that solves an immediate problem for a real person standing…

In my family there are a lot of carpenters who build their own houses. I wonder what it’s like for them since building a house is also a project with a long loop and I could see that closing silently as well with all the “work you actually wanted to do but had to leave undone”. Those couple of licks of paint, that slightly-uneven flooring you made. I wonder.

Well that is actually about the long term. If the labour of an international software company is like that, which depends on management is uo to debate. When you follow the discourse on this newsboard, it seems more like the craftsmen building software often struggle with the manifestation in their domain of the fact, that the way corporations are managed is often not in regard to long term goals but to shortcircuits in the service or quick profits incentiviced by the disfunctionalities of current late stage capitalism. (Not being allowed or unable to build the quality software they would like to build; instead having to ship fast building tech dept etc.)

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#453

Post by ninalanyon »

freeopinion wrote: post #386
wolvesechoes wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society. I don't think I am that unusual in this respect. I see people acting very capitalistic to operate community gardens with the maximum margins. I see highly trained experts volunteer as educators. I see well-paid doctors and lawyers raking up leaves for their neighbors. I see accountants freelancing to keep the blind center afloat. Charity…

Charity is the only thing that can save us. Tax is just a different take on charity. We all agree to pay into the community chest to provide for a pubic commons. Resistance to progressive tax is resistance to a type of charity. One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. If charity won't save us taxes never will.

The problem is that as a proportion of income the rich are much less charitable than the poor.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#454

Post by ninalanyon »

freeopinion wrote: post #411
gopher_space wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. The desire for control interferes with efficiency, and this is a lesson every decent NGO operating out of Africa learned thirty years ago. I think our real problem is that we've been dismissing working solutions with "but that's socialism" for so long that socialism is starting to look kind of amazing.

You might think that my brain is broken, but I do not think that capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive. I think that capitalism describes the effects of acting out of self interest. I think that people can act in a way that they think is in their best self interest when it actually isn't. Also, "self interest" can have qualifiers like "near term", "long term", etc. Self interest is frequently complicated. S…

> I do not think that capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive.

Of course they are not, after all my home country of Norway is largely like that.

But the capital needs to be harnessed in the service of the people at large, not concentrated in the hands of a few oligarchs.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#455

Post by qsera »

defrost wrote: post #448
qsera wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I mean, just no. What exactly are you claiming? Environmental pollution was more 300 years ago than it is now?

The claim is twofold, that London, a major capital city, arguably the largest most important city at that time, had little to no functional sewerage, turds floating down the Thames, people drinking cholera straight from the pump, etc. Which was true at that time. The second part of the claim is that is no longer the case for London, and somewhat implied is that few other large capitals of the world have such extreme…

>turds floating down the Thames

Dude, what are you saying? Just boil the water and you are golden.

But you cannot remove the poisons in the industrial waste dumped into rivers by boiling or filtering. People are totally helpless now.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#456

Post by samantp »

komali2 wrote: post #434
freeopinion wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might think that my brain is broken, but I do not think that capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive. I think that capitalism describes the effects of acting out of self interest. I think that people can act in a way that they think is in their best self interest when it actually isn't. Also, "self interest" can have qualifiers like "near term", "long term", etc. Self interest is frequently complicated. S…

To be honest I think you're conflating terms. > I think that capitalism describes the effects of acting out of self interest. Acting out of self interest has results that can be described in many ways, but is too unrelated to the economic structure of capitalism to draw the thread I think you're trying to draw. Capitalism is a very simple definition: private ownership of the means of production in service of capital…

1. Capitalism: Efficient, progress, but channels all benefits to very fewer and fewer as tech progresses. Trickle down is too slow.

2. Socialism: Bureaucratic and slow, no private enterprise, finally poverty. Unless it is the special form of global efficient state capitalism (same as capitalism then); just that commonfolk of the state-capitalist nation can be happy overall, at the expense of many more unhappy citizens of countries exploited by the bully country.

3. Capitalist with Minimum-basic-services: Let anyone with strength do anything they wish as long basic needs of food, health, education, safety, etc are handled. Will lead to pacified but meek, non-interfering masses and those at the helm take care of development and throw additional goodies to the basic-service pool as per their gains/wishes (plus doors of fashion are always open for philanthropy). Latest trends seems be toward this.

4. Ideal, Private enterprise with strong oversight by democratic state: Private enterprise, be it for profit or anything else, who cares. Just have enough knobs (taxation, holidays, freebies, policy, force, etc.) in place such that development happens where needed (balance parity, environment, nex-gen research etc. dimensions) wholesomely. This is ideal, should have worked, but alas, since all elections are funded by big money, the patrons will definitely expect returns in the form of favoritism during policy formation (including a big no to state-funded elections, or big yes to curbing public agitations by weapons and state force).

In short, masses are doomed, and tech progress will expedite it!

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#457

Post by defrost »

qsera wrote: post #455
defrost wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim is twofold, that London, a major capital city, arguably the largest most important city at that time, had little to no functional sewerage, turds floating down the Thames, people drinking cholera straight from the pump, etc. Which was true at that time. The second part of the claim is that is no longer the case for London, and somewhat implied is that few other large capitals of the world have such extreme…

>turds floating down the Thames Dude, what are you saying? Just boil the water and you are golden. But you cannot remove the poisons in the industrial waste dumped into rivers by boiling or filtering. People are totally helpless now.

> you cannot remove the poisons in the industrial waste dumped into rivers by boiling or filtering.

That's why those methods aren't used.

> People are totally helpless now.

Depends on the country, some will regulate industry and insist on properly constructed separation ponds and heavy metal bioremediation.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#458

Post by rdwrrr »

poisonborz wrote: post #444
rdwrrr wrote: post #440

We've made government so involved that we can not escape. My radical believe is that I just want to be left alone. In theory I have enough investments to live off if it wasnt for taxes and inflation. In theory I could buy a plot of land and take care of myself. An easy and simple existence. I know all very radical..

Except not true. Civilised man is not independent. You buy that plot of land and... build a house with which materials. You need to get at least some groceries. If you get sick, who heals you? If you are abused, or you abuse someone, they need protection Etc etc. Coordination and oversight (= government) is a must.

You confuse a colossal government that has its tentacles in every aspect of life with people working together to achieve things. All of the above can be achieved though the market arguable much more efficient than by far away bureaucrats at a fraction of the cost.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#459

Post by komali2 »

samantp wrote: post #456
komali2 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I think you're conflating terms. > I think that capitalism describes the effects of acting out of self interest. Acting out of self interest has results that can be described in many ways, but is too unrelated to the economic structure of capitalism to draw the thread I think you're trying to draw. Capitalism is a very simple definition: private ownership of the means of production in service of capital…

1. Capitalism: Efficient, progress, but channels all benefits to very fewer and fewer as tech progresses. Trickle down is too slow. 2. Socialism: Bureaucratic and slow, no private enterprise, finally poverty. Unless it is the special form of global efficient state capitalism (same as capitalism then); just that commonfolk of the state-capitalist nation can be happy overall, at the expense of many more unhappy citizen…

Isn't the failure you note in 4 always inevitable in a system where Capital translates to power?

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#460

Post by klondike_klive »

I've been asked to come give a talk about my career(s) at a school where a friend of mine works.

Thinking about it is turning into a bit of an existential audit. Even though I've been the recipient of a big nationally-recognised award in my field, most of my adult life has been alternately starving in a garret and working for peanuts to make huge faceless conglomerates richer on licensing deals, all the while struggling with an undiagnosed neuro-developmental condition.

On the face of it I've been enormously successful in my career, yet executive function struggles meant I hit a wall 20 years ago and couldn't ascend to management. Now I've aged out of my industry and have had to pivot to a bunch of different things.

I'm really wondering what to say to these kids. The most honest version would be some version of the Far Side cartoon with a mother mantis saying to her dozens of wide eyed offspring "Of course, long before you mature, most of you will be eaten."

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