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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#451

Post by SoftTalker »

voxic11 wrote: post #442
SoftTalker wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could finesse it by saying that on HN, the users submit the content and the users also determine (by voting) what is popular. Ycombinator doesn't promote or bury any particular post with their own algorithms; they don't exercise any editorial review or control. (I don't think that's exactly true today, but it could be). But to the larger point, I would actuall agree that sites should "review and take resp…

So do you think the same logic applies to ISPs? Should they be reviewing all the content that they allow to transit their network and ban you if you try to evade their controls by using uncrackable encryption because if they mess up and allow you to distribute copyrighted or defamatory material they will be held liable? Remember that section 230 was originally enacted to protect them from liability.

No I don't think it applies to ISPs. They aren't involved in selecting or soliciting the content, or providing the sofware and platform that creates or distributes the content. They are "just pipes." Their purpose is to move bits.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#452

Post by atomicUpdate »

moooo99 wrote: post #155
jayGlow wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

personally yes, that kind of choice should belong to the individual not the government. besides that though the laws are nonsensical why is a seatbelt required in a car not not in a bus, why are motorcycles even allowed at all?

This argument falls apart for countries with socialized healthcare. As long as all people are paying for your dumb decisions, it is reasonable to expect the government to reduce the frequency of dumb decisions by adequate means.

Enforcing a healthy diet and exercise would have a vastly larger impact than any seatbelt laws in terms of reducing health care costs. Seatbelts and smoking always seem to be about as far as the advocates are willing to go though.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#453

Post by [deleted] »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #426
tolerance wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@conception (root): "If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present" @Aurornis: "Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too." @Aurornis (cont'd): "When every site with “an algorithm” is liable for content posted, nobody is going to allow you to post something. It’s back to only rea…

Legislation needs to be clear and unambiguous, sure. Nonetheless no one had chronological sort or raw vote count or whatever else in mind when they used the term "algorithm" here so pretending they did is obtuse and pedantic. Misinterpreting the position of the other party does not typically make for enlightening or insightful conversation. Cable TV is an example of something that no one is objecting to. The EU is ta…

[deleted]

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#454

Post by tolerance »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #426
tolerance wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@conception (root): "If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present" @Aurornis: "Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too." @Aurornis (cont'd): "When every site with “an algorithm” is liable for content posted, nobody is going to allow you to post something. It’s back to only rea…

Legislation needs to be clear and unambiguous, sure. Nonetheless no one had chronological sort or raw vote count or whatever else in mind when they used the term "algorithm" here so pretending they did is obtuse and pedantic. Misinterpreting the position of the other party does not typically make for enlightening or insightful conversation. Cable TV is an example of something that no one is objecting to. The EU is ta…

> Nonetheless no one had chronological sort or raw vote count or whatever else in mind when they used the term "algorithm" here so pretending they did is obtuse and pedantic.

No one until you it seems.

> Cable TV is an example of something that no one is objecting to.

@tencentshill's reference to cable TV originates from the question of whether Hacker News operates via algorithm and would be subject to the sweeping regulation proposed by @conception. The answer is yes.

If I wanted to be pedantic I'd try to argue that cable TV operates according to its own kind of algorithm. And I almost did, so you got me there at least. But there's enough factors that contribute to television programming that it's debatable how far it is from using one (or a recommender system, rather) and whether under different circumstances the EU's issue with "endless scroll" and "autoplay" would be aimed at TV.

Of course the main difference is that television in Europe is probably regulated different than the internet.

I'm not objecting to the internet being regulated like television. For the record, I don't hold one to the same standard of utility as the other. I'm speculating on what would happen if the internet were to be regulated like television according to the combined scenarios advanced by @conception and @tencentshill. Do you follow?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#455

Post by isaisabella »

Actually I don't think these regulations can prevent kids from using social media if they REALLY want to. For example, in China, kids under 18 are not allowed to play video games by requiring facial verification. However, many kids will ask their grandparents to do the verification. So indeed it's not preventing anyone.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#456

Post by lava_pidgeon »

jen20 wrote: post #251
ErigmolCt wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the smoking comparison works best when applied to the engagement mechanics rather than "social media" as a whole

Why? Smoking was always pitched as a social activity.

Ycombinator is obviously social media and not designed to be addictive as mastodon.

Tik tok and Facebook are designed to be addictive

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#457

Post by aembleton »

butlike wrote: post #102
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

Do it like a library. When a person walks into a library, they're presented with a short curated list of books suggested from the librarian. All visitors to the library see the same books. From there, the visitor can go about their business searching for what they want. If they don't know what they want, perhaps a good use case for the newfangled LLM-search we have now would be "What's an interesting or popular topic…

How often can the librarian update the curated list of books? Once a day? Once per minutes? Once per ms?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#458

Post by spockz »

awakeasleep wrote: post #243
spockz wrote: post #214

They should also tackle Youtube. Yesterday my Youtube app opened into "Shorts" automatically. Shorts are of the same addictive variety as TikToks.

You can actually disable shorts now. Open the youtube time management settings and set shorts to zero. Its bliss for an old guy like me

Amazing, thank you! I’ve set it immediately.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#459

Post by spockz »

joshlemer wrote: post #284
spockz wrote: post #214

They should also tackle Youtube. Yesterday my Youtube app opened into "Shorts" automatically. Shorts are of the same addictive variety as TikToks.

I feel like the core of the problem is that we don't as consumers have hardly any control over the software we run on our devices. People can and have written less addictive YouTube, Reddit, etc clients, but Google Play and Apple App Store don't allow them.

Google Play and Apple App Store don’t allow them because they are in breach with the YouTube service policy. If Google changed that policy the app stores would allow those apps.

Otherwise your point completely stands of course!

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#460

Post by Jackknife9 »

anzerarkin wrote: post #22

I don’t think this is only a kids issue. A lot of adults need this too. The addictive apps are very well designed, while most blockers are either too easy to ignore or too annoying to keep using. I built a small iOS blocker because I had the same problem. Making it strict enough to actually work without making people hate it is the main challenge.

Unfortunately it seems like by design on IOS there is no way to make an IOS blocker you cannot disable relatively easily. I would love a way to have a DNS blocker that you need a password to disable but it seems like this isn't possible. Every blocking app you can simply delete and the block goes away.
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