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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#451
"Age verification is the Trojan horse. And once it is inside the gates, the surveillance state becomes operational."

Braindead meme. "Age verification" is not a "Trojan Horse". No one, regardless of age, _wants_ to use age verification. They are being effectively _forced_ to ask for it or use it. Age verification (identity verification) is a tradeoff. A "Trojan Horse" is something that people actually want, not an obvious tradeoff, a sacrifice, a compromise. No one is being "fooled" into complying with identity verification in the form of age verification

The surveillance state is already operational. If you use "platforms" then you are already inside the gates with the enemy. The surveillance apparatus is operated by so-called "tech" companies that perform data collection, surveillance and online ad services as a "business model". These companies provide access to and information about internet users to advertisers and law enforcement

If "age verification" dissuades some people from accessing "platforms" (servers) run by so-called "tech" companies, then that is a loss for the companies and a privacy gain for those people. The "hill to die on" is not using "platforms"

These companies are the reason that "age verification" is proceeding. They push the allegedly harmful content because it makes money for them. Further, the companies' "platforms" make "age verification" possible. This is because they intermediate transmissions between internet users through these so-called "platforms". Governments need not comply with laws that protect individuals from government surveillance when they can target "platforms" instead

It is disturbing that anyone would want to "die on a hill" to save "platforms" from "age verification". These third parties are surveillance companies. They built the surveillance state. They already know who you are, they do not need government-issued ID

If the people spreading this "Trojan Horse" meme cared about surveillance, including identity verification, then they would not be defending "platforms" from regulation, they would stop using the "platforms"

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes up in every thread, but the purpose of the laws is not to verify that someone can access an anonymous token. If we had a true anonymous token system then everyone would just share tokens around. The real world analog would be if you could buy beer at the store with anyone's ID because they didn't make any effort to reasonably check that the ID was yours or discourage people from sharing or copying IDs. The…

Continuous age verification isn't possible, so you'll have to store some sort of proof of age somewhere, and that proof will always be sharable. Let's say Facebook has verified my age somehow. I could share my Facebook login credentials, or the token that their authorization server sends back in response. You can create some hurdles to doing that, like requiring a second factor, but I can just share that too. You mig…

That really depends. A zero knowledge system would show to the verifier that the person is authorized for access _right now_, but thats just the answer to a particular challenge. Outside of the verifier who knows they came up with a random challenge without bias or influence, the response would mean nothing.

I think a lot of age verification systems are the solution to the real core of legislation - to make companies liable for underage viewing of content. To put such legislation in place without providing a feasible way to accomplish age verification would be argued as discriminatory.

In that sense, a zero knowledge system which doesn't give a company non-repudiation so that they can defend themselves in court may very well be insufficient. And that will require tracking identity long-term, although it could be done with a third-party auditor under break-the-glass situations with proper transparency.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty European countries have eID without these issues.

You use eID when explicitly interacting with a govt entity or bank or otherwise similar institution because you have to and want to prove who you are. Yes, I do want to prove who I am when I file taxes, vote or want to start a business... You don't use it when just browsing randomly on the internet. You don't use it to buy games on steam. Your computer isn't forced to store it because a law arbitrarily says so.

Why not, seems to be made exactly for this purpose if you look at the "‘Age over 18’: true" flag. What's bad about that solution?

> The technical solution for an EU age verification app is privacy-preserving, open source and user-friendly.

> First, the user downloads the app onto their phone and sets it up by certifying their age. This can be done with a biometric passport/ID card, a national eID (e.g. national ID Card or other electronic identification mean), a pre-installed third-party app (e.g. a banking app), or in person (e.g. at the post office). Only the information confirming that the user is over the age will be saved in the app. No name, no birthday, or any other data is saved.

> After completing this step, the communication between the app and the provider certifying the user’s age (e.g. eID, third-party app) ends. No further data is exchanged.

> The app is then ready to be used online. When an online platform asks to verify the user’s age, the user can use the app to communicate they are over a certain age (e.g. ‘Age over 18’: true) to the platform.

https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/faqs/eu-age-verific...

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#454
post #8

The one and only method I will participate in is server operators setting a RTA header [1] for URL's that may contain adult or user-generated or user-contributed content and the clients having the option to detect that header and trigger parental controls if they are enabled by the device owner. That should suffice to protect most small children. Teens will always get around anything anyone implements as they are alr…

Yeah this seems like the best tradeoff. You avoid the central control infrastructure and you provide information to clients. It's also a great match with free computing devices, which can then utilize the new information, empowering users (eg parents -> parental control on device, or individuals who want to skip some kinds of content).

There are issues today with this approach such as lacking granular information for sites that have many kinds of context, but if you stop investing in the central control infra and invest in this instead that could be remedied.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#455
post #414
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's framed as being only for social media. But, really, it's about network access. Without network access, it's difficult to thrive in the modern world. Are you not alarmed at the possibility that a person's network access could be cut arbitrarily and at-will?

I'm mostly alarmed by kids parroting Andrew Tate and a whole generation being raised propagandised by Tiktok brainwashing.

Why? Kids have had access to the internet for over 30 years. What is the tiktok brainwashing (I don't use it), and how do you qualify the danger of it from say google news brainwashing, or even (gasp) public school brainwashing? I mean, if we're going to group ban information, at least let people in the local communities make those decisions. Otherwise, we're going to get the Epstein class making these decisions.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An outstanding idea. Those lobbying for age verification hate it though, because they want to be the arbiters of age, and all that juicy PII that they can analyze and resell.

I'm not so sure. I think the push is from the government actually. But companies are not exactly opposed to it. Quite the contrary. Big corporations see compliance as a moat. Tobacco companies supported stricter regulations on tobacco advertisements, because they had the deep pockets required to follow the changing laws. Mr. Altman is all-in on AI regulation, because it will mire down competitors while OpnAI has alre…

"The government" is the same as those lobbying the government. The people in the government get paid to push it, so they push it, and get paid more when it goes through, by the people who want that PII to analyze.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#457
post #8

The one and only method I will participate in is server operators setting a RTA header [1] for URL's that may contain adult or user-generated or user-contributed content and the clients having the option to detect that header and trigger parental controls if they are enabled by the device owner. That should suffice to protect most small children. Teens will always get around anything anyone implements as they are alr…

RTA = restricted to adults

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#458
post #8

The one and only method I will participate in is server operators setting a RTA header [1] for URL's that may contain adult or user-generated or user-contributed content and the clients having the option to detect that header and trigger parental controls if they are enabled by the device owner. That should suffice to protect most small children. Teens will always get around anything anyone implements as they are alr…

“solutions” like this presume that age verification/gating is the goal. it’s not. it’s a cover story.

the goal is eradicating anonymous publishing. the goal is making strong government ID mandatory to use the internet.

any privacy preserving age gating system is useless toward that goal, so it is irrelevant.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#459

I’m in the UK and we recently got the Online Safety Act. We failed, this legislation is very popular with voters and not getting rolled back. Those that dislike it use a VPN and aren’t interested in fighting. I’d say most of the public here is exhausted with cost of living and internet freedom just isn’t relevant to their voting habits. I grew up around a lot of the hacker ethos, open internet, Information Wants To B…

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