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German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

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Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#451

Post by fsflover »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #331
haagch wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German citizen here. So why is an implementation going forward when you already know it will not serve all citizens? Why are we not refusing to implement this until we know we can make it work on all devices? Personally I recently switched from an AOSP based android without Google Play to Ubuntu Touch. In the future with better hardware support I will probably switch to postmarketOS.

> Why are we not refusing to implement this until we know we can make it work on all devices? Simply put: this will never happen. Way too many devices implementations to make this a reality.

It's just a matter of creating a web app.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#452

Post by TobTobXX »

afandian wrote: post #77
TobTobXX wrote: post #73

Same in Switzerland. The app needed to sign in to fill out my taxes doesn't work on ungoogled Android.

Can you do your taxes on a computer without a phone?

Somewhat. To fill out my taxes online, I could sign up with either the AGOV app (needs Google Android) or a USB security key. I happened to have a yubikey, but I needed to mess with the firefox about:config (security.webauth.u2f=true IIRC). It did work in the end though.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#453

Post by fsflover »

p2detar wrote: post #436
Hackbraten wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analogy is flawed. I can be part of the losing 49% and still be entitled to receive the same services as the 51%, whereas people who chose a privacy-oriented OS are essentially going to be excluded from essential governmental services. That's a whole different kind of thing. I'm not going to replace my 1200 EUR smartphone with a device that forces me to have an account with Apple or Google. I've been iss…

> privacy-oriented OS Well, in all seriousness what examples could you give me here in terms of device hardware attestation? Even GrapheneOS does use Google root certificates to attest your device. There is indeed an option for EUDI to keep a list of keys and I bet this is probably the way they are going to go for Android in the future. We shouldn't forget this is still in the planing phase. > to have an account with…

> in all seriousness what examples could you give me here in terms of device hardware attestation?

My Librem 5 runs an FSF-endorsed OS and has a smartcard.

> True for Google, not true for Apple. Device attestation on iOS does not require you to have an iCloud account or sign into some Apple services.

This is extremely misleading. Even if true, you must have an account in order to install any app on an iPhone.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#454

Post by gmueckl »

haagch wrote: post #214
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

German citizen here. So why is an implementation going forward when you already know it will not serve all citizens? Why are we not refusing to implement this until we know we can make it work on all devices? Personally I recently switched from an AOSP based android without Google Play to Ubuntu Touch. In the future with better hardware support I will probably switch to postmarketOS.

You have the totally wrong expectations here. Some service that requires citizens to buy and bring their own devices in order to use a service will by definition always be exclusive. Whining about lacking compatibility with some niche sbowflake devices is just inappropriate in this context. The only solutiin is to require an actually convenient fallback for those otherwise excluded from that service.

The limited selection of attestation providers can be criticized for many other reasons, though.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#455

Post by LexGray »

b112 wrote: post #439
miki123211 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do all German hospitals serve vegan food? If you were averse to carrots (without any health restrictions on eating them), would every government institution in Germany be required to serve you carrot-free food? If not, why should they be forced to accommodate every smartphone brand in existence, even if there's only 3 people in Germany using it? THe list has to end somewhere.

While the example your provide is reasonable fair, the comparison is not. For it to be fair comparison, the carrots would have to be grown by a foreign company, known for using unsafe growing practices, causing contamination. Eg, poison carrots. This same company would have to be under the control of a very hostile, very actively aggressive and threatening nation. Such as one currently threatening to annex allies, am…

I think it falls under the article yesterday about male German citizens having restrictions on their travel. Electronic ID is a step toward “papers please”.

Germany at least seems to feel international war is only a few steps away and from how militant the Chinese and Russians have been treating their “territory” I am not sure it is a bad call.

America has likewise turned bad preferring violence over dialogue and loves tracking “hostile influences on the American way of life”. Those influences being anyone who would call out the toxic culprits making America into a cesspit.

Tying to Apple and Google? It is a terrible idea. Both are prone to freeze devices for financial or social issues.

However, a fix I would accept is to force the device makers to support multiple accounts out of box on every device to keep separate what the corporations have proven time and again they cannot be trusted to combine. Also for those companies to be forced to make a cheap credit card sized device which must be held to power on for the few that truly hate the ecosystems.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#456

Post by TacticalCoder »

txrx0000 wrote: post #448

This is about mass surveillance and control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Revelations The existence of eIDAS itself is already a big problem. They're going to try to gradually push laws to make it so that you'll need a government issued signature to do anything . That's when they'll have total power over you because they can simply refuse to issue. Modern computing and communications technologies can…

> They're going to try to gradually push laws to make it so that you'll need a government issued signature to do anything.

And in the EU it's already nearly the case. The dystopian horror that KYC/AML has become for honest citizens is beyond belief. And they're of course hiding behind the excuse that "bad guys are laundering money": but going after actual drug dealers, of course they're not doing that. We now have articles wondering if Belgium (where most of the EU institutions do live and where all these totalitarian laws are passed) has become a "narco-state" (where criminals make the rules).

People's life can be ruined when some employee, somewhere, decides he wants to bumps his SAR quota (Suspicious Activity Report): you can have a real-estate transaction fail (and have hence moreover to pay a 10% penalty to the other party) if either a notary, bank employee, real-estate agency employee decided that they've got the nostalgy of the Gestapo-time and decided to act like a good little nazi (yes, Godwin's law: for we're literally talking about totalitarism).

I recently had an notary's employee bother my brother for the source of funds when he bought an apartment... A quarter of a century ago. A quarter of a century ago and he was talking to my brother as if he was a criminal for he didn't have access anymore to the bank wire transfer from 25+ years ago. It's crazy for the exact same controls had already been done 25+ years ago when he bought the apartment. And the notary's employee fully knows that. (regarding that case my brother is currently looking into the national federation of notaries and he's going to file a complaint: he's got emails from that notary's employee that are totally out of line).

The problem is way too much power over the lives of others is put into the hands of petty people: petty bank employees, petty notary employees, petty public servants. The same kind of people who were all too happy to out jews during WWII and who were making sure trains would leave on time.

I previously had a folder where every single money transfer of more than 10 K EUR was saved: I know do it for every transfer below 5 K EUR. And these are to be kept forever for I know that me or my wife or my daughter shall invariably meet motherfuckers asking them "proof of the source of funds from 30 years ago when your father bought that collectible car" (worth less than 20 K back then btw, but worth 6 digits now).

Just fuck these systems and fuck anyone working on it and fuck all the nazis participating in it.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#457

Post by spwa4 »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #409
spwa4 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I see your confusion. It is not trying to prove it's not cheating with the UI (or remote control, or ...) to the owner of the phone. It's proving to the owner of the website (or app, or SIM, or ...) that it's really the user agreeing to the contract on the screen. Or, more to the point, it's proving it to courts after the fact so they'll convict the owner of the phone rather than the business or government. The sc…

Do you imply that google can prove such a thing or it's just a security theater for (((compliance)))? AFAIK attestation attests hardware, not software, but hardware attestation is self contained and doesn't require any remote cartel permission, cf yubikey attestation.

The EU is trying to make a standard that courts will enforce because EU politicians (the commission, not parliament) really want that. But all EU countries are trying to save cash without touching what's causing the money problem (that would be pensions, there is no way in hell EU governments can spend what's required to keep pensions going as is even in 2026. In the past they spent all the pension money instead of investing and now they have to start paying it back, except they can't. And if they touch pensions ... well there's a French joke. It goes something like this "One of the greatest accomplishments of the 20th century is that you can see Paris from space. Look there it is, that flame right there ...")

So they're just going to use the Apple/Google standards and declare the job done. So it's theater from all sides. Politicians will pretend this is a good solution because they don't want to spend real money, and they really want to tempt EU kids to get loans on their smartphones because, you know, in the EU you're protected from companies exploiting you. Of course, that just means governments will have to do it instead.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#458

Post by charcircuit »

fsflover wrote: post #450
charcircuit wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be cheaper to just buy all of the outliers a bottom of the barrel Android phone for them to use with the tax money.

And force them into the Google surveillance, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261

[flagged]

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#460

Post by oytis »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #253
Archelaos wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German citizen here. I find this attitude horrible and threatening. You are working on sacrificing yet another part of our digital sovereignty to a US company. There are trillions of better things to do with your life.

European Citizen here, and indeed lots of people in IT turn a blind eye onto the collateral damage their work may create. I know someone who happily codes "verifiable credentials" in Elixir, disregarding all externalities.

What's wrong with verifiable credentials? It's an important thing to have it seems? Your passport or a bank card are verifiable credentials, or at least are designed to be.
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