451–460 of 473 posts
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No it isn’t “meant” to do anything but reflect a desire to protect children. You’re projecting.
Okay, so not every single person pushing surveillance is a bad faith actor and there are some parents in there who truly want the best for children. How does that change the substance of my point about overreach?
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How does the OS know that you moved from the "13-15" bracket to the "16-17" bracket without knowing your DoB? And this is the thin edge. Because in a few years there'll be a bill saying something like "too many children are lying about their age online. We need to verify their age" and then we're capturing IDs and storing them somewhere.
> How does the OS know that you moved from the "13-15" bracket to the "16-17" bracket without knowing your DoB? No one says it has to be automatic. The OS could require the parent to manually update it.
> The OS could require the parent to manually update it.
At some point one of two things is required:
1) A promise that the user is a certain age
- Which puts us exactly where we are
2) Official identification is used to verify age
- Which creates a PII nightmare
[0] https://cybernews.com/privacy/persona-leak-exposes-global-su...
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> How does the OS know that you moved from the "13-15" bracket to the "16-17" bracket without knowing your DoB? No one says it has to be automatic. The OS could require the parent to manually update it.
> The OS could require the parent to manually update it. How is their age verified? At some point one of two things is required: 1) A promise that the user is a certain age - Which puts us exactly where we are 2) Official identification is used to verify age - Which creates a PII nightmare That's it. There's only those two options. You may not believe #2 is going to be a privacy nightmare but we're already seeing it…
The difference here is it can be set by the parent on the OS and locked. Requiring sudo equivalent to change.
The way it is now, there's nothing stopping a (18-) user from logging out of a 'parental control enabled' account and making a new account without those controls on any service from Facebook to Steam. So the only effective option at that point is to entirely block that app or service.
This gives more power to parental control software. And yeah moves the responsibility from the service to the parents, which is what the services want cuz COPPA and other similar laws.
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> The OS could require the parent to manually update it. How is their age verified? At some point one of two things is required: 1) A promise that the user is a certain age - Which puts us exactly where we are 2) Official identification is used to verify age - Which creates a PII nightmare That's it. There's only those two options. You may not believe #2 is going to be a privacy nightmare but we're already seeing it…
> Which puts us exactly where we are The difference here is it can be set by the parent on the OS and locked. Requiring sudo equivalent to change. The way it is now, there's nothing stopping a (18-) user from logging out of a 'parental control enabled' account and making a new account without those controls on any service from Facebook to Steam. So the only effective option at that point is to entirely block that app…
But you do bring up another issue people aren't discussing. That the default setting is under 18.
So we protect the children from adults by... having no way to actually verify someone is a child?
The problem is less kids getting access to porn and more pedos getting accounts to spaces designed for children. Places like Club Penguin or very famously Roblox.
Here's the problem, you can't verify children. They don't have identification in the same way adults do. And worse, if we gave them that then it only makes them more vulnerable!
Then we have the whole problem of a global internet. VPN usage is already skyrocketing to circumvent these policies.
So the only real "solution" to this is global identification systems where essentially everyone is carrying around some dystopian FIDO key (definitely your phone) that has all your personal information on it and you sign every device you touch. Because everything from your fridge to your car is connected to the Internet.
But that's a cure worse than the poison. I mean what the fuck happens to IOT devices? Do we just not allow them on the internet? That they're assumed 18+? So all kids need to do is get a raspberry pi? All they need to do is install a VM on their phone? On their computer? You might think that kids won't do this but when I was in high school 20 years ago we all knew how to set up proxies. That information spread like wildfire and you bet it got easier as the smarter kids put in the legwork.
This is a losing battle. It's not a cat and mouse game it's While E Coyote vs Road Runner.
We're on HN FFS. If there's anywhere on the Internet that the average user is going to understand how impossible this is it should be here. We haven't even talked about hacking! And yes, teenage script kiddies do exist.
These policies don't protect kids, they endanger them. On top of that they endanger the rest of us. Seriously, just try to work it out. Try to create a solution and then actually try to defeat your solution. Don't be fucking Don Quixote.
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(A), honestly. You might think you can keep 16 year olds from looking at porn, if they want to. You can't. You have never been able to. All you can do is teach them that the law is stupid and pointless, and they should treat rules with contempt. But they'll still be able to look at porn. What you can do is allow the government and private companies to track everyone, everywhere, all the time. And you can create more…
Sixteen year olds? Sure, mysterious Forest Porn and the older brother who'd give you skin mags have always existed. And Cinemax at night, catching the odd frame that somehow gets thought the scrambler. Whatever. But we can't realize all the supposed glorious promise of all this tech bullcrap for education and free exploration of younger kids if we can't at least come pretty damn close to guaranteeing that an eight-ye…
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> Which puts us exactly where we are The difference here is it can be set by the parent on the OS and locked. Requiring sudo equivalent to change. The way it is now, there's nothing stopping a (18-) user from logging out of a 'parental control enabled' account and making a new account without those controls on any service from Facebook to Steam. So the only effective option at that point is to entirely block that app…
That doesn't change anything I said. But you do bring up another issue people aren't discussing. That the default setting is under 18. So we protect the children from adults by... having no way to actually verify someone is a child? The problem is less kids getting access to porn and more pedos getting accounts to spaces designed for children. Places like Club Penguin or very famously Roblox. Here's the problem, you…
Some things do that. This law doesn't have a default. If the admin sets all the user accounts to 18+, then the users are stuck with the setting being 18+.
> I mean what the fuck happens to IOT devices? Do we just not allow them on the internet?
Sounds pretty good to me.
But yeah they need a different handling of some manner. Maybe a "give no access to anything age-gated" category, though is that really different from under-13 in practice?
> So all kids need to do is get a raspberry pi? All they need to do is install a VM on their phone? On their computer? You might think that kids won't do this but when I was in high school 20 years ago we all knew how to set up proxies.
Just delaying unrestricted access to high school would already solve most of the problem.
> These policies don't protect kids, they endanger them. On top of that they endanger the rest of us.
They do not. Some totally different system could endanger people, but this one doesn't.
If I’m not mistaken, Meta has been lobbying heavily for all of these age-verification bills lately. It seems their strategy is to externalize their responsibility to verify age themselves, and thus reduce their exposure to liabilities when child protection acts like COPPA are violated.
Is there a problem with this? Most users are using an iPhone and most iPhones already know the accurate age of their user
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being against child abuse is woke too amirite?
Not sure what you mean by “woke” here
"Can anyone help me understand the term "woke", I have never heard it before"?
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Not sure what you mean by “woke” here
Its a terrifically rare term that has never before been used before me (there are now copycats on x/twitter), so I can understand why you might be unfamiliar with it. There are so many subcurrents of meaning and subtlety and to truly understand it would require more dimensions than the current sad state of the average mind can comprehend. I would take you on a guided tour of the profound and terrifying truths that th…
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We should support something that does the minimum to accomplish the goal. As luck would have it, we don't need to do anything because parental controls already exist, and apps like YouTube already have a "kid mode". But for some reason, people are very attached to the idea of getting that number. Your age. It isn't enough to have a boolean isAdult. Oh no, they want to know how old you are, and they want that number t…
Have you used parental controls? They're complete and utter shit. You cut your child off from almost all of the internet, or you may as well not have any controls at all.