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Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

gitlab.redox-os.org

451–460 of 504 posts

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#451
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really struggling to understand why you would burn down a decade+ old reputation over this particular issue. Is this really the hill you wanted to die on?

It’s an abstract argument with one pretty clear point that you can’t seem to grasp: people lie, on the internet, all the time. Any system, policy or discussion that pretends this isn’t the case is worthless.

This is not an abstract argument, you are showing a willingness to do the wrong thing in spite of being told not to, repeatedly, by many other participants here. I see only two things here:

(1) you would lie

(2) you fundamentally don't understand the concept of consent

> "I’ll make a change any way I choose, upright, sideways, using AI. My choice. Not theirs."

The fact that other people would lie is besides the point: those other people would get the exact same treatment if found out. Whether or not they would be found out is moot, it is the act of lying and ignoring consent that makes this what it is: asshole behavior. By extension anybody that practices this behavior is an asshole as well and by extension of that tying your own rep to people that would behave like that makes you an asshole and I highly doubt that that was your intention.

So now you've - over endless comments - shown that you fundamentally don't get this very important concept. Yes, people lie. But there are mechanisms for dealing with liars. Misrepresentation and fraud are serious things. Lawsuits, fines and in an extreme case jail, but on a more immediate level ostracizing. It makes you as a person into an undesirable. It also makes the world as a whole a worse place to live in, which is why such behavior is strongly discouraged, even if it is possible.

That's why we don't structurally go around clubbing old ladies over the head as a revenue model, not because we can't do it or because it would be acted upon by the law (that's for the few who don't get it) but because it is simply a bad thing to do. It is a matter of ethics. That's why if an open source project has a 'No AI' policy you either abide by the policy or you can expect massive backlash.

To think that you could do this and even should do this to make the point is as stupid as walking out and grabbing some old lady's hand bag to prove that it can be done: you are hurting an innocent to prove your point and it will cause a reaction that is at a minimum proportional to what you did and worst case you will be made an example of. This can be the proverbial career ending move. If you are Elon level rich and your inner asshole seeks a way out then yes, you could probably do it. But for normal folks such behavior is highly discouraged. Actions usually have consequences.

Finally: open source is a massive gift to society. The whole reason you can use AI in the first place is because that gift got abused in a way that open source contributors did not anticipate. If you're going around to pollute open source with AI contributions to effectively karma farm you have to wonder why you are so intent on doing that. Is it your purpose to destroy open source? Or is it just because you enjoy destroying stuff in general? I don't see any other options, this is a pathology and it would do you good to introspect on this for a bit instead of to respond with yet another ill conceived reply digging yourself in further. You've gone from 'mildly annoying' to 'wouldn't work with this person for any amount of money because they are a massive liability' in the space of 15 comments. I hope it was worth it to you.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#452
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an abstract argument with one pretty clear point that you can’t seem to grasp: people lie, on the internet, all the time. Any system, policy or discussion that pretends this isn’t the case is worthless.

This is not an abstract argument, you are showing a willingness to do the wrong thing in spite of being told not to, repeatedly, by many other participants here. I see only two things here: (1) you would lie (2) you fundamentally don't understand the concept of consent > "I’ll make a change any way I choose, upright, sideways, using AI. My choice. Not theirs." The fact that other people would lie is besides the point…

[flagged]

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#453
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person who showed their work on the math test is 9/10 times is doing better in life than the person that only knew how to use a calculator Sure but once you learn long multiplication/division algorithms by hand there's not much point in using them. By high school everyone is using a calculator. > Just like when people started losing their ability to navigate without a GPS/Maps app Are you suggesting people shou…

>I don't think "LLMs making us dumber" is a real concern. Yes, people will lose some skills. Before calculators, adults were probably way better at doing arithmetic. But it's a problem of scale. Calculators are very specific tools. If you are trying to run a computation of some arithmetic/algebraic expression, then they are a great tool. But they're not going to get you far if you need help understanding how to file…

The written word isn't a very specific tool. Before writing, people had to memorize things. In some sense, writing has made us dumber as memorization has been deemphasized. But was it worth the trade? Yes.

If you want a more recent example, google search is an extremely broad tool that has operated similarly.

I think AI will be another rung in the ladder of abstraction. Something will be lost, but it's worth the trade.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think "LLMs making us dumber" is a real concern. Yes, people will lose some skills. Before calculators, adults were probably way better at doing arithmetic. But it's a problem of scale. Calculators are very specific tools. If you are trying to run a computation of some arithmetic/algebraic expression, then they are a great tool. But they're not going to get you far if you need help understanding how to file…

Yeah, I agree. However, people use llms for the same reason people drive 3 blocks to a store rather than walk. Laziness and convenience. They simply don't care if their leg muscles atrophy. However, I think people aren't taking into account how much more important your thinking "muscles" are and its way more consequential to let those atrophy. Everyone is vulnerable to the allure of taking shortcuts in life, but I've…

People will have to be more intentional about using their increased leisure time in a healthy way. There was no point in exercising if you were a peasant who worked the field all day. Today, if you sit down in an office all day, you need to exercise intentionally. People have figured this out!

Along the same lines, AI will necessitate a shift where people intentionally use their extra intellectual leisure time. Reading, writing, chess, learning a new language, etc.

Not everyone will do this. Some people will be the intellectual equivalent of obese. But people will figure it out eventually.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#455
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think "LLMs making us dumber" is a real concern. Yes, people will lose some skills. Before calculators, adults were probably way better at doing arithmetic. But it's a problem of scale. Calculators are very specific tools. If you are trying to run a computation of some arithmetic/algebraic expression, then they are a great tool. But they're not going to get you far if you need help understanding how to file…

The written word isn't a very specific tool. Before writing, people had to memorize things. In some sense, writing has made us dumber as memorization has been deemphasized. But was it worth the trade? Yes. If you want a more recent example, google search is an extremely broad tool that has operated similarly. I think AI will be another rung in the ladder of abstraction. Something will be lost, but it's worth the trad…

I don't agree that writing, or Google search are on the same level here. A problem about having this argument on HN is that I think most people are already firmly entrenched in the pro-AI position, and will not consider any possible downsides.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#456
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree. However, people use llms for the same reason people drive 3 blocks to a store rather than walk. Laziness and convenience. They simply don't care if their leg muscles atrophy. However, I think people aren't taking into account how much more important your thinking "muscles" are and its way more consequential to let those atrophy. Everyone is vulnerable to the allure of taking shortcuts in life, but I've…

People will have to be more intentional about using their increased leisure time in a healthy way. There was no point in exercising if you were a peasant who worked the field all day. Today, if you sit down in an office all day, you need to exercise intentionally. People have figured this out! Along the same lines, AI will necessitate a shift where people intentionally use their extra intellectual leisure time. Readi…

>But people will figure it out eventually.

Will they? >50% of US adults are overweight or obese. Is this the example you want to hang your hat on?

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like every person stating things of this nature are literally not able to communicate effectively (though this is not a barrier anymore, you can get a dog to vibe code games with the right workflow, which to me seems like quite an intellectual thing to be able to do. Despite that, you will make this argument when trying to use copilot to do something, the worst model in the entire industry. If an AI can replac…

> If an AI can replace you at your job, you are not a very good programmer. Me and millions of other local yokel programmers who work in regional cities at small shops, in house at businesses, etc are absolutely COOKED. No I cant leet code, no I didnt go to MIT, no I dont know how O(n) is calculated when reading a function. I can scrap together a lot of useful business stuff but no I am not a very good programmer.

Do you mean you aren't able to use AI to make software?

The thing you fear is the thing that you could just use to improve yourself?

Why fear a shovel?

Also, I never claimed to be a good programmer either. Just don't see the point fearing something that makes it infinitely easier and faster to get work done.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like every person stating things of this nature are literally not able to communicate effectively (though this is not a barrier anymore, you can get a dog to vibe code games with the right workflow, which to me seems like quite an intellectual thing to be able to do. Despite that, you will make this argument when trying to use copilot to do something, the worst model in the entire industry. If an AI can replac…

Copilot isn't a model. Currently it's giving me a choice of 15 different models. By all evidence, AI is nowhere close to replacing me, but to hear other people tell it, it is weeks or maybe months away. I'll just wait and see.

Remember when copilot released? It was running some openai thing at the time, now you can choose from many models sure, but if you want a BMW, buy a BMW, don't buy a Nissan with badly strapped on BMW decals.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#459
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The written word isn't a very specific tool. Before writing, people had to memorize things. In some sense, writing has made us dumber as memorization has been deemphasized. But was it worth the trade? Yes. If you want a more recent example, google search is an extremely broad tool that has operated similarly. I think AI will be another rung in the ladder of abstraction. Something will be lost, but it's worth the trad…

I don't agree that writing, or Google search are on the same level here. A problem about having this argument on HN is that I think most people are already firmly entrenched in the pro-AI position, and will not consider any possible downsides.

There are lots of anti-AI commenters on HN. Also, I didn't say there are no downsides. There are downsides to writing! And some people were against writing, like Socrates.

You should ask yourself why you're okay with innovations that happened in the past but not okay with innovations happening now. It could just be reflexive conservativism.

Of course there's no guarantee that AI will be more positive than negative, but I see no compelling reason to believe that. Most of the anti-AI sentiment is just people not liking new things.

Re: Redox OS has adopted a Certificate of Origin policy and a strict no-LLM policy

#460
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will have to be more intentional about using their increased leisure time in a healthy way. There was no point in exercising if you were a peasant who worked the field all day. Today, if you sit down in an office all day, you need to exercise intentionally. People have figured this out! Along the same lines, AI will necessitate a shift where people intentionally use their extra intellectual leisure time. Readi…

>But people will figure it out eventually. Will they? >50% of US adults are overweight or obese. Is this the example you want to hang your hat on?

People are figuring it out in real time. The next generation is going to be way less fat than the current one, because everyone exercises. It took time for people to adjust to a world where physical exertion is optional and delicious food is cheap, but we are getting there. I see no reason to assume the same thing won't happen with AI.
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