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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#451

Post by JKCalhoun »

jcarrano wrote: post #444

"If you need subsidies in order to live off art, you don't live off art but live off the state". As part time artist I see many problems with these schemes: - Decoupled from people's actual appreciation of the art being done: I feel better when I know people voluntarily gave up their hard-earned money for what I do. - Monopoly-style "winner takes all". The people who benefit from this are the ones already in a positi…

The obvious conclusion is that artists should make the art that the wealthy want and are willing to pay for.

And in hard economic times artists ought to turn to gleaning.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#452

Post by whywhywhywhy »

qualitylearing wrote: post #420
jimnotgym wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it divides them into people that create cultural wealth and people who create mere monetary wealth. So you do agree that art should be supported by government I see, so how would you do it?

[dead]

> banana taped to a wall

Taking this on face value without the rest of his oeuvre as context and value is being disingenuous.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#453

Post by miroljub »

Everyone is talking about basic income as an experiment and wondering about its impact on productivity and human behavior. And everyone talks about hypothetical scenarios and a need for massive tests, without realizing that we already have a massive test data about basic income.

There's a huge group of people in western countries that has received unconditional basic income for decades, without any requirements. No questions asked, no documents required, no forced work. They could basically use that free money to flourish and pursue whatever creative activity they could imagine, without fear of economic downsides.

And we know the results already. We see it in our cities daily. But as a society, we have decided not to talk about it so we are not called racists or far right. Instead, we keep ignoring this massive group with an equivalent of basic income and keep pretending we still require experiments on its effects.

But yeah, let's test a few dozen Irish artists and keep pretending everyone needs to work for a living.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#454

Post by whywhywhywhy »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #449
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

Plenty of people get upset if they think there is someone, somewhere getting a "handout". It's easy to channel indignation toward those people and not, say, their corporate masters that seem to hold everyone's strings.

What’s “corporate masters” got to do with a transaction from taxes and inflation (stolen value on your savings and spending power) to a handout?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#455

Post by dev_l1x_be »

jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

> Daniel James spent his life slaving away in an ironworks, making crucible steel. John Hughes, who wrote the tune worked in an office there.

Part of being an artist (at least it used to be) is struggle.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#456

Post by instig007 »

dns_snek wrote: post #400
ap99 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only tax people so much before it's too much. effective tax rates 0% ... not realistic outside very unique circumstances. 25% ... feels fair to me. 33% ... still fair but yeah 1 out of every 3 days worked you start to feel that. 50% ... the border of fair and unfair. if i keep less than half of what i make, that feeling of fairness wears thin. Now, when you are near that border of fair and unfair and then you…

Which tax rates? We have dozens. What determines fairness is how the resources in our society are allocated once all is said and done. Income, tax rates, and even money itself is just an abstraction. > if i keep less than half of what i make, that feeling of fairness wears thin. How fairly you made that money in the first place and what you get in return in the form of government services makes all the difference.

> What determines fairness is how the resources in our society are allocated once all is said and done.

I propose allocating upfront the work, so that those who disagree don't have to contribute into the "done" part of those who allocate it in a weird way.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#457

Post by danparsonson »

miroljub wrote: post #453

Everyone is talking about basic income as an experiment and wondering about its impact on productivity and human behavior. And everyone talks about hypothetical scenarios and a need for massive tests, without realizing that we already have a massive test data about basic income. There's a huge group of people in western countries that has received unconditional basic income for decades, without any requirements. No q…

You'd need to be more specific - who/what is this huge group of people you're referring to?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#458

Post by gruez »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #452
qualitylearing wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> banana taped to a wall Taking this on face value without the rest of his oeuvre as context and value is being disingenuous.

Looking at the wikipedia page it looks like the "context" was "I was only pretending to be stupid". What am I missing?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#459

Post by afavour »

dev_l1x_be wrote: post #455
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

> Daniel James spent his life slaving away in an ironworks, making crucible steel. John Hughes, who wrote the tune worked in an office there. Part of being an artist (at least it used to be) is struggle.

I’d say that’s correlation, not causation. Just because past artists have struggled to make ends meet doesn’t mean it’s a requirement to make art.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#460

Post by BSDobelix »

_heimdall wrote: post #388
BSDobelix wrote: post #372

This is how you kill the idea of basic income, create rifts and factions.

Killing the idea of basic income would be a good thing. It will never work and would leave a society in much the same situation as other past attempts at Marxism.

>Killing the idea of basic income would be a good thing.

Maybe we have a different look on basic income, for me it's like unemployment money with less steps and less overhead (less bureaucrats). I also dont know why you pull in marxism, but those systems normally starve because of bureaucrats (hello germany) where you have to fill out 10 papers to create one praline, and NO i dont say germany is "marxist", but they are really good at always taking the worst from both sides.

For giggles, lets say every work can be done by robots, every service by ai and energy is free (dyson sphere or whatever you want), who's left to spend money and for what? And tadaa StarTrek ;)

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