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TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

nytimes.com

451–460 of 568 posts

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#451
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well sure, they don't want the competition. Churches have naturally evolved to use techniques that keep people coming back. The ones that don't do that die out.

Are you sure churches are a natural phenomenon rather than a cultural one?

Where did I suggest anything of the sort?

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve noticed the same thing and this creates such a negative user experience. Every short is a reaction test and if I fail, I get slop. Makes the whole experience very jarring (for better or for worse).

They built a slop machine, not something tuned for positive UX. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

At the risk of going off on a tangent about that maxim; I feel like it's just misusing the word "purpose".

Maybe it would be cleaner to state that a system has no purpose (at least not until it is sentient), instead it has behaviors. Then one can observe that the purpose of the designers or maintainers of a system simply happens to be at odds (or as AI safety researchers would say, are "out of alignment with") the behavior of the system.

That all of course presupposes that one can accurately deduce the purposes of the designers/maintainers.. In the case of TikTok, I'd bet that we are all in agreement that their purpose is nothing more nor less than maximal value-extraction from people wishing to express themselves with videos multiplied against an audience of people who wish to view videos multiplied again against advertisers who want to insert propaganda into eyeballs.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are arguing its not the recommender that is unique it is the network effect.

If it was only network effect, then how did TikTok grow in a space where Instagram and Youtube were already much bigger players? How did they gain that user base? Network effect helps, but it only explains why they stay big, not how they got big There really isn't that much making TikTok unique. Yes, their app is well designed. Yes, stitches and video replies make for great social/parasocial features because creators…

Because back in a day, Instagram and YouTube were shitty products and by some metrics still are

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can get into extremist rabbit holes independently of control surface. Remember 4chan? Dangerous content is a matter of moderation regardless of interfacing.

4chan has a lot less extremism than people imagine, rspecially compared to platforms like Instagram or Facebook. It's mostly concentrated on certain boards. The reputation of being extremist did more 'in favour' of its extremism than the original userbase and design ever did.

4chan is only outdone by 8chan. “It’s only concentrated on certain boards” is the same lame excuse Reddit used to ignore /r/thedonald and now /r/conservative.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any harm that could come from saying "a less addictive algorithm needs to be available to users"? For example, lets say there is an option to only recommend videos from channels you subscribe to, that would be much less addictive, why isn't that an option? A regulation that forces these companies to add such a feature would only make the world a better place.

> I don't see any harm that could come from saying "a less addictive algorithm needs to be available to users"? consider air travel in the present day. ticketing at essentially all airlines breaks down as: premium tickets that are dramatically expensive but offer comfortable seats, and economy tickets that are cramped and seem to impose new indignities every new season. what could be the harm from legislation that wo…

'we gotta keep lead in gas'

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any harm that could come from saying "a less addictive algorithm needs to be available to users"? For example, lets say there is an option to only recommend videos from channels you subscribe to, that would be much less addictive, why isn't that an option? A regulation that forces these companies to add such a feature would only make the world a better place.

I agree, but what would be the actual mechanism that would allow that? I believe we’re out of ideas. TikTok’s crime was just be firmly successful because of good engineering. There’s no evil sauce apart from promotional content and occasional manipulation, which has nothing to do with the algorithm per se. And about whitelisting, I honestly don’t think you’re comparing apples to apples. The point of the algorithm is…

Leaded gasoline was great engineering as well. Doesn't mean we continued to allow it to poison people.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46865275

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#457

I gave a talk at PyData Berlin on how to build your own TikTok recommendation algorithm. The TikTok personalized recommendation engine is the world's most valuable AI. It's TikTok's differentiation. It updates recommendations within 1 second of you clicking - at human perceivable latency. If your AI recommender has poor feature freshness, it will be perceived as slow, not intelligent - no matter how good the recommen…

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Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#459
post #71

I'm skeptical about banning design patterns just because people might overuse them. Growing up, I had to go to the theater to see movies, but that didn't make cliffhangers and sequels any less compelling. Now we binge entire Netflix series and that's fine, but short-form video needs government intervention? The real question is: where do we draw the line between protecting people from manipulative design and respecti…

Has been really surprising to see HN increasingly turning pro paternalistic censorship and control, and increasingly skeptical about individual agency over the years.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#460
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short form video has been a total break from previous media and social media consumption patterns. Personally I would support a ban on algorithmic endless short form video. It's purely toxic and bad for humanity

People are way too comfortable banning things these days. This is where the term 'nanny state' comes from. A subset of the population doesn't have self control? Ban it everyone. Even if it's a wildly popular form of entertainment with millions of creators sharing their lives, who cares we know better.

Hard not to think of the "hard times create strong people, strong people create good times, good times create weak people, weak people create hard times" meme here.
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