buy two phones if ur that crazy
You need to use a digital biometric ID managed by the Ministry of Public Security for most services in Vietnam now.
The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
451–460 of 643 posts
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#452The biggest "evil" that has been committed (and is still being committed) against computing has been normalizing this idea of not having root access to a device you supposedly own. That having root access to your computer, and therefore being the ultimate authority over what gets run on it, is bad or risky or dangerous. That "sideloading" is weird and needs a separate name, and is not the normal case of simply loadin…
I think, practically, everyone will need at least a cheap-ish android or iphone, perhaps $300 (and a new one every few years ...), to be their locked-down "agent" for using financial or government services. It's not for you, it's for the government/banks, it is their agent for talking to you. Kinda weird, if you think about it. But that seems to be the way it's heading.
This is ultimately a form of slavery though.
A country that is a dictatorship - I can understand why their slaves have to go through this. I fail to see why a true democracy would do this though. There is zero need to be required to have a smartphone; all those transactions work perfectly fine on a desktop computer system too, under Linux. People then may have a second device at home, some card reader and/or a thing such as Yubiko or something like that. IMO not even this should be required, but to mandate an app that would not be permissive under Linux - that is true dictatorship. I am surprised the government of Vietnam went that way.
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
> App sandboxing and system file integrity is one of the most beneficial security features of modern computing, You can have sandboxing and system integrity while still giving the user overrides. But hey this is not Google and Apple's business model because it makes you less dependent on them. And it interferes with their sweet 30% rent-seeking app stores. Mobile security works this way not because it's best for us b…
> You can have sandboxing and system integrity while still giving the user overrides. I think this is wishful thinking, and the most experienced organizations in the world in this field agree with me. You can’t square this circle. We can pretend that these two things can coexist, but they cannot. Where there are overrides, there are youtube tutorials on how to disable the overrides to install malicious botnet vpn sur…
So wait, the solution for malicious spy ware installed by corporations like Meta is giving ownership of our devices (and consequently all our data) to corporations like Apple?
Got it.
And remember the consequences when Apple starts scanning all your photos and sends a SWAT team to arrest a father who took a picture of his son's rash and sent it to a doctor, because surely he was engaging in child abuse.
I rather have Meta steal info of the 100mln idiots that install their root kits on their devices than have Apple and Google do the same for Billions (with a B) to protect from the former.
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#454I get the general skepticism and how this gives anti freedom vibes, but wouldn't this also prevent some actual rootkit like sideloaded apps stealing credentials? Not deep into rooting scene but seems plausible to me that this has some merit if you squint at it from the right angle
Here's the fundamental problem: Trusted agents are useful. And I'm using legal meanings, not technical meanings here - so a "trusted agent" is someone or something that is legally acting on your behalf, to perform actions as though you were performing them. The whole fucking promise of "general purpose computing" is that citizens should be able to delegate repetitive and tedious tasks to a computer. And they should h…
I get what you're saying about general purpose computing. I do a bunch of selfhosting flavoured stuff so we're on the same wavelength in a way.
...but I don't think that's the lens legislators look through here. I think it's more like "Last week and upset constituent lost all their savings". This politician cares more about protecting gullible constituent than a hypothetical stallman-esque freedom argument.
Not saying I agree, but rather that I can see why a politician might land on that conclusion
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#455The biggest "evil" that has been committed (and is still being committed) against computing has been normalizing this idea of not having root access to a device you supposedly own. That having root access to your computer, and therefore being the ultimate authority over what gets run on it, is bad or risky or dangerous. That "sideloading" is weird and needs a separate name, and is not the normal case of simply loadin…
[flagged]
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#456Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think, practically, everyone will need at least a cheap-ish android or iphone, perhaps $300 (and a new one every few years ...), to be their locked-down "agent" for using financial or government services. It's not for you, it's for the government/banks, it is their agent for talking to you. Kinda weird, if you think about it. But that seems to be the way it's heading.
This is ultimately a form of slavery though. A country that is a dictatorship - I can understand why their slaves have to go through this. I fail to see why a true democracy would do this though. There is zero need to be required to have a smartphone; all those transactions work perfectly fine on a desktop computer system too, under Linux. People then may have a second device at home, some card reader and/or a thing…
Even elected governments already have the ability to take whatever they want from you, and force you to act against your own interests; this seems like a comparatively minor infringement.
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#457So, if you cannot cryptographically prove to a remote server that your device is running essentially unmodified, vendor-signed software, you are locked out of the economy? The irrefutable part here is that the security model works. Locking down the bootloader and enforcing TEE signatures does stop malware. But it also kills user agency. We are moving to a model where the user is considered the adversary on their own…
> We are moving to a model where the user is considered the adversary on their own hardware. That has been the model since day one, since you are using spectrum that, because the end users are not licensed, requires it. Radios in 100% of commercially available phones are locked to prevent user tampering. You don't get root on your debit card either, despite it running a computer.
You make good points, but your framing makes it sound like this new change is nothing new, when it is and it should be discouraged.
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s not an evil at all. For 99% of people who aren’t “computer people”, when we gave them that, we got the Bonzai Buddy and 47 other malware toolbars installed. Did we forget 2003 already? App sandboxing and system file integrity is one of the most beneficial security features of modern computing, and the vast majority of people have no desire to turn it off. You can buy rootable phones. People overwhelmingly choose…
The problem is mostly that normal people can't be trusted with system-level access but some people can. And it's literally, provably not possible to tell them apart. For the masses, lack of system-level access is a benefit because they won't be able to ruin their device. For hackers and hobbyists, lack of system-level access is a hindrance because they won't be able to control their device.
Normal people shouldn't have computers. The internet must be made back into something you sit down to use.
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think, practically, everyone will need at least a cheap-ish android or iphone, perhaps $300 (and a new one every few years ...), to be their locked-down "agent" for using financial or government services. It's not for you, it's for the government/banks, it is their agent for talking to you. Kinda weird, if you think about it. But that seems to be the way it's heading.
This is ultimately a form of slavery though. A country that is a dictatorship - I can understand why their slaves have to go through this. I fail to see why a true democracy would do this though. There is zero need to be required to have a smartphone; all those transactions work perfectly fine on a desktop computer system too, under Linux. People then may have a second device at home, some card reader and/or a thing…
But with kernel level attestation, the banks can start requiring this on computers as well...
(From the kernel-level anti-cheat discussion the other day)
Re: The Vietnam government has banned rooted phones from using any banking app
#460So, if you cannot cryptographically prove to a remote server that your device is running essentially unmodified, vendor-signed software, you are locked out of the economy? The irrefutable part here is that the security model works. Locking down the bootloader and enforcing TEE signatures does stop malware. But it also kills user agency. We are moving to a model where the user is considered the adversary on their own…
As I mentioned in another post: By 2026, you'll need two phones. My current setup: 1) An unmodified iPhone SE (2022 model) with OS support until 2032. This runs all my authentication, banking, health, etc. It is in airplane mode 99% of the time unless I need it. 2) The second is a Pixel 9a with Graphene OS for daily use, routing and internet access. This is expensive, but I found it to be the only viable solution to…
I have a similar setup, but no need for your "bank/govt app phone" to be an expensive device. A cheapest $120 smartphone money can buy is good enough.
Then you choose the flagship device you're going to use 99% of the time on the basis of how easily you can unlock the bootloader/root.