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Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

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Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#451
post #83

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

I don't know if it's "legal" or not and by who's laws, but it certainly seems like terrorism to me (i.e. intentionally creating a state of terror). I think if Lebanon found a clever way to assassinate the top 45 military commanders in Israel the same people who are defending this wouldn't be calling it a "Legal act of war".

> i.e. intentionally creating a state of terror

That's not really a good description of terrorism. Terrorism is going after non-military targets, or at least indiscriminate targeting, for the express purpose of causing terror.

If an enemy tank platoon is rolling down the street, the operator of an antitank missile certainly knows that blowing up the lead tank and killing the crew in front of their compatriots is going to instill terror in the rest of the tank platoon. Taking that action anyway is correctly described as an act that intentionally instills terror, but that's not an act of terrorism. War, regardless of if it's waged lawfully, is often terrifying.

The way to successfully argue that Israel's pager attack was an act of terror is to show indiscriminate targeting - not merely highlight how terrifying it is to have a bunch of high level officers killed at once. However, investing a lot in the latest information gathering technology sound like the opposite of indiscriminate targeting.

I obviously can't speak for how the public writ large would react to our hypothetical. But I can at least speak for myself that if Hezbollah somehow, say, flew a bunch of drones onto IDF bases and killed officers, then that would be an act of war but not an act of terrorism no matter how terrified it might make Israelis feel.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost like explosives… explode, and hit the people and surroundings near them. Shrapnel travels. You’re trying to derive who had the pagers from first principles, yet you don’t seem to understand how a bomb actually works.

(1) We have videos of the explosions and their scale. (2) We have Hezbollah's own claims about how many of their fighters were actually killed. (3) We have Hezbollah's own photographs of scores of injured Hezbollah fighters --- people not blown apart from the explosions, further backing a claim that all sides to the conflict are making (far more casualties than KIA). (4) We know how small the pagers were (indeed, exa…

Further:

You, reasonably, cautioned against axiomatic reasoning --- I do feel like I'm bringing quite a bit of empiricism into this, though I am rejecting the ratio of casualties we're attributing to Lebanese and Hezbollah reporting --- so let me add a couple more empirical observations:

* We have reporting (Reuters, others) that the pagers were packed with 6 grams of PETN.

* 6 grams of PETN produces ~35kJ of explosive force.

* That's about 7x more powerful than a cherry bomb, or about 2% of the explosive force of a standard fragmentation grenade.

Later

In considering that yield statistic bear in mind also that the lethality of an M67 (lethal within 5m, casualties within 15m, well studied) is mostly a function of its construction --- its explosive charge, 50x greater than that of 6g of PETN, is designed specifically to propel fragments of a hardened steel case out through its blast radius.

The pagers were just pagers, with the explosive payload specifically designed not to have metal components (which would have been detectable by Hezbollah.)

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#453
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any sources at all for your assertion “This was very probably the most precisely targeted large-scale military strike of the last 100 years”? It is hard to engage with your statement in any reasonable fashion without knowing where you are getting your information.

Here is an excellent and HN-worthy writeup of the argument for legality, and the counterargument that it was an improper booby trap.[1] It seems to me most of the polarizarion on this board could have been avoided had the original article recognized (as does the one linked here) "that the legality or illegality of the pagers attack can only be determined on the basis of a detailed factual analysis and that the releva…

This is really good. (As you say, it's mostly framing the question, rather than settling on a final disposition).

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#454
post #324

So, what exactly did Palantir provide? I'm staying out of commenting whether or not this was legal/justified and asking strictly what service this was that was sold. Is this like, live location information provided from social media/carriers/etc? Is it AI guessing who might be a target based on collected data? EDIT: I ask because this sort of claim could just be marketing on Panantir's end and the quotes and this pos…

Having being working as a direct competitor to Palantir on and off for the past decade, I'd guess one of their embedded engineers wrote a few custom SQL queries.

Dark humor

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they're saying it's inappropriate. It seems like they're saying this isn't the place to share your outrage.

Inappropriate and “this isn’t the place” are synonyms.

This might help. Appropriate = your outrage(not shared here) in general. Inappropriate = sharing your outrage here.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#456
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Targeting here goes beyond reasonable expectation from a military at war. Compare that to the russian terror of lobbing 500kg bombs at random housing blocks.

Or the Israeli terror of lobbing 2000lb bombs at random housing blocks for that matter.

I suspect that "random housing block" was on top of some non-random tunnels full of non-uniformed military intentionally using the occupants of those houses as human shields.

Otherwise there's no reason to use such a large bomb on some houses.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#457
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that one is borderline but, in the context of a topic this divisive, borderline is not so bad, so I've unflagged it.

@dang Here is another comment of mine on this thread that is substantive, responding directly to the issue, and not a personal attack, but was still flagged. I'm an HN user for 15 years, have reviewed the rules, and don't think this violates any (except that I used the word "balls"?). I agree with the other commenters that flagging is being abused here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46223274

[deleted]

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#458
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Members of an organization that shoots missiles over international borders and stockpiles arms cannot be called civilians.

That would apply to Americans and Israelis too.

I'm not a member of any American military or political organization that takes any kind of military action.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#459
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We stopped using the word 'civil' years ago. Commenters here need to follow the rules, and the rules don't go away when the topic is a tough one. On the contrary, they apply more , as https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html makes clear.

Happy to follow the rules when free discussion is allowed. Watching this topic get censored aggressively on here during some of the darkest months for Palestinians eroded my respect for your “rules”.

We've specifically protected, carefully moderated, and kept open many threads about this topic, at considerable cost, because each time one of these appears on HN, the mods can kiss the rest of their day goodbye, not to mention look forward to streams of abuse [1]. Forgive me therefore if I dispute your claim of "censored aggressively". To me that feels like not taking yes for an answer.

That's understandable, because the people who feel passionately about any topic (call it X) always feel like X is vastly underrepresented, and even "censored aggressively", on HN. We can say things like "frontpage space is the scarcest resource" and "we can't have too much repetition" till the cows come home, but it won't take this feeling away. Even when X is literally the most discussed topic on HN, we get people claiming that X is being censored aggressively—it's not even uncommon [2]. This is a function of how people feel and nothing else.

[1] I'm not comparing this to the suffering of the people in the actual situation. That is obvious of course, but since someone will accuse me of doing that if I don't say this, I'm saying this.

[2] If you want an example, this one is engraved in my memory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916. How someone could turn the most-discussed topic on the entire site into "not any mention" and "censored aggressively" still boggles my mind.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things Firstly, generals, like anybody else can be terrorized. Secondly, even if you only kill generals, that doesn't mean you didn't cause terror for everybody else. Imagine for example that Hezbollah found a way to poison the food for Israel's top X military personnel. It would cause a state of emotional terror for many people in Israel about their food safety for decades most likely, even if they weren't in th…

No, generals in an operational military force are definitionally combatants, and cannot in fact be "terrorized".

this

why is that guy trying to fight against dictionary-definition of "terrorism"?

where did "intentionally creating a state of terror == terrorism" come from?

making up word definitions to win arguments?

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