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Racism at a gaming company

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Re: Racism at a gaming company

#451
post #445
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? When something is statistically and objectively perpetrated by one group, it's not racist to note as much when someone of said group does said thing. e.g. "Mansplaining" describes a behavior perpetrated overhwelmingly by men. By not by all men. And it's not right to automatically assume a given man is going to mansplain something. But when a man starts mansplaining, it's not misandry to note that mansplaining is…

So does the same logic apply when e.g. a black person commits a crime?

Of course it does.

If crime were perpetrated, objectively and statistically overwhelmingly, by black people, or black people were objectively and statistically overwhelmingly criminals, it would be fair to talk about crime being a thing black people do.

The crucial difference is the statistics do not remotely support such assertions. In fact, they flatly reject such relationships.

Nor is being a criminal remotely causally linked to being black, the way being ignorant of straight white male privilege is almost (again: almost tautologically) causally linked to being a straight white man, or the way being a 'mansplainer' is almost causally linked to mansplaining. [1]

[1] To state it more explicitly: you can't likely grow up mansplaining and reach maturity without having the tendency pointed out to you if you're not a man. Because our cultural baggage is that women defer to men and thus face more scrutiny/skepticism/criticism than men when they do disagree.

So even if we assume that everyone starts off equally likely to be a 'mansplainer' by mere chance, the female mansplainers are overwhelmingly going to have that tendency pointed out, challenged and be made aware of it.

Mansplaining adults will, thus, be almost entirely men because of said cultural baggage.

Similarly, it's pretty much impossible to grow up and reach maturity ignorant of remaining straight white male privilege in the US unless you happen to be a straight white male. If we again assume that the tendency to be 'blind' to remaining racism/sexism/homophobia is randomly distributed, only those with that 'blindness' who are straight/white/males are likely to reach maturity without having encountered situations that made it impossible to remain ignorant of such remaining tensions.

Applying the same considerations: if we assume the tendency to commit crimes is evenly/randomly distributed at birth, there's no evidence that non-black would-be criminals overwhelmingly receive some life experience that steers them away from crime. To the contrary we find that white would-be criminals are much more likely to have life experiences that result in the crimes they do commit being excused or ignored.

So not only is there no evidence that being black makes you more likely to commit crime, there is evidence that being white makes you far less likely to be charged, prosecuted and found guilty.

That is: a black person is no more likely to commit crime, refuting the assertion, and they have the deck stacked against them, meaning that asserting such a link is not only wholly unfounded by the data, but it takes a further act of white privilege to ignore the existence of the stacked deck.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#452
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except for the pendant comment. That's just a case of taking yourself too seriously. Yet another nail in the coffin of his credibility. What nails? You're treating his every statement as suspect by default based on the racial, sexual and political stereotype you are projecting onto him. Judging by the admittedly superficial evidence of your post history, you are a Randian libertarian with a stereotypical dislike of…

Randian libertarian? Really? No, I'm actually quite moderate. I'm a left of center person here in the U.S., and my time in the deep south has made me keenly aware of how horrible the excesses of conservatism can be. However, my time in liberal areas of the nation (northern California, Massachussetts, etc.) has shown me how horribly wrong the classic ivory tower liberalism can go also. I don't dislike people victimize…

> Randian libertarian?

To make my point, I was jumping to conclusions based on flimsy evidence.

> You know, because I hate minorities and women's rights and I worship Ayn Rand.

I don't believe you do any of those things. But I do believe you unfairly prejudged him on insufficient information and that someone doing the same in reverse would come to those sorts of conclusions about you.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#454
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm just recounting my personal experience. FYI, I grew up and still live in the southern US, where race relations are an acknowledged problem, and where social protocols and culture are still more distinct across races than they are within them. And I'm already somewhat bad in general with social protocols. So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people. I'm saying that, unfortunately ,white pe…

> The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people -- 6 hours later -- > So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people Surely you can forgive _pius for assuming you meant what you said.

You're taking what I said out of context. I said:

The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here.

As I clarified in my last post, my point was that it is regrettable that the blogger "sent the message" he did.

By the way, when you talk about me forgiving _pius, you are obfuscating who is blaming who. I am on the receiving end of blame, not the giving end.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#455
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive." -- too typical a response "Peppered throughout the post are cultural signs and signifiers that mark the author as an advocate for a fairly specific set of political and social beliefs." -- completely irrelevant to assessing the facts of the case As a white m…

Regardless of how pissed off he may have been, you don't fight racism with more racism. All that does is exacerbate the situation and hurt your credibility. Calling someone a dumbwhite * might feel good but does nothing for your cause. I've always believed the correct response to racism is to educate. Educate his coworkers on the origin and significance of his necklace and why they shouldn't equate the way he dresses…

There are several definitions of racist talk, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means black people in the USA can be racist to white people if they say things like "Dumbwhite".

There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern USA life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist talk is talk that re-enforced that imbalance. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/white/black/g and make it just as racist.

So no, it's more racist to say "dumbblack" than "dumbwhite"

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article is one in a series. Perhaps I was wrong and it is not clear or well-argued without the context of the broader series to draw from. It's a shame because it is actually painstaking in its argumentation and attention to nuance, and by far the most insightful series of its kind that I've ever read. When you say "chances are you are a bigot" you may technically be correct in the sense that from a random popul…

> "it is actually painstaking in its argumentation and attention to nuance" No it's not. It doesn't follow anything through to a conclusion, it just berates people who attack strawmen, or who dismiss others' arguments out of hand, whether that dismissal is warranted or not. Just taking the "I'm not racist but.." argument on that post: are you really saying that there is no other way to phrase your argument? It's guar…

What conclusion were you looking for exactly? It was an empirical recounting of events, peppered with an analysis of why the events are so frustrating for the author. Did you expect The Essay That Ends Racism?

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#457
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people -- 6 hours later -- > So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people Surely you can forgive _pius for assuming you meant what you said.

You're taking what I said out of context. I said: The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here. As I clarified in my last post, my point was that it is regrettable that the blogger "sent the message" he did. By the way, when you talk about me forgiving _pius, you ar…

If you find yourself in the situation of the calculator-assuming woman, where you feel like you've made a comment that touches on cultural sensitivities, use the moment as a learning experience. Instead of leaving the awkward air, ask them what they are thinking. "oh sorry haha that was a weird assumption, what is it?" Asking to be educated is pretty much the opposite of the mansplaining / whitesplaining that is so painful to the author of qu33riosity, and is almost universally welcomed. A little humility goes a long way.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#458
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "it is actually painstaking in its argumentation and attention to nuance" No it's not. It doesn't follow anything through to a conclusion, it just berates people who attack strawmen, or who dismiss others' arguments out of hand, whether that dismissal is warranted or not. Just taking the "I'm not racist but.." argument on that post: are you really saying that there is no other way to phrase your argument? It's guar…

What conclusion were you looking for exactly? It was an empirical recounting of events, peppered with an analysis of why the events are so frustrating for the author. Did you expect The Essay That Ends Racism?

I was refering to xanados' article, not the OP: http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#459
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people -- 6 hours later -- > So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people Surely you can forgive _pius for assuming you meant what you said.

You're taking what I said out of context. I said: The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here. As I clarified in my last post, my point was that it is regrettable that the blogger "sent the message" he did. By the way, when you talk about me forgiving _pius, you ar…

So you're saying he's deliberately but perhaps covertly telegraphing the message "white people, don't talk to me"?

Because if not, "don't talk to progressive blacks" is the message you took away not the one he sent.

> I am on the receiving end of blame, not the giving end.

Oh, for real? Who blamed you for what?

Going back and re-reading your previous post:

> But I do know that accusing white people of racism for clearly non-racist behavior,

It may be non-racist, but it's still culturally tone-deaf.

> as with the calculator-necklace incident, is counterproductive, and (for me) reinforces needlessly distressful things I've experienced.

Oh, weird, because the "calculator-necklace incident" probably reinforced some needlessly distressful (racist, dehumanizing, othering, outgroup-reinforcing) things for the author. Why should he make your distress a priority when you care none for his?

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#460
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive." -- too typical a response "Peppered throughout the post are cultural signs and signifiers that mark the author as an advocate for a fairly specific set of political and social beliefs." -- completely irrelevant to assessing the facts of the case As a white m…

Regardless of how pissed off he may have been, you don't fight racism with more racism. All that does is exacerbate the situation and hurt your credibility. Calling someone a dumbwhite * might feel good but does nothing for your cause. I've always believed the correct response to racism is to educate. Educate his coworkers on the origin and significance of his necklace and why they shouldn't equate the way he dresses…

Sure, only when it's your boss being racist, you don't have many other options than shut up or get fired. French white man here, apalled by 70% (yah, i did the math) of that whole thread. I don't care being called a colonialist because that's true, my country was a colonial empire, so was the UK, and so is the US now, with 200 years of history to catch up (irak anybody?). Laws against racism might be enforces, one day, in the US, who knows. It even happenned in moste European countries.

This guy did the right thing : stand up and talk. Obviously he cares more about telling "the world" than being patted on the shoulder. In other words, he somewhat did it the "black panthers" way, and as much as I like Martin Luther King and gandi, i don't believe you gain rights without fighting. For real.

Why that reaction of mine ? Cause it remembers me an episode of my youth, when i xas living with my Commando father (yeah, like your marines) in africa, and was the only white guy who stood up for a Malgache girl who was being bashed by a bunch of white guys, everyday on our way to school. I got beaten in front of the whole bus for about 15 minutes by the bunch of white racists guys. The driver, a black guy from Cameroon came to me the next day, and told me that he was glad i had to loose some teeth, because otherwise he would have lost his job.

So : racists are punks, a nuisance. I don't care about educating them. There are laws for them. I will fight them if i can, and yes, i hate them all :) (but i do like heavy metal, perl and javascript, yeas i do)

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