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Free software scares normal people

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Re: Free software scares normal people

#451

Post by Hendrikto »

tombert wrote: post #316
gspencley wrote: post #98

A lot of this type of stuff boils down to what you're used to. My wife is not particularly tech savvy. She is a Linux user, however. When we started a new business, we needed certain applications that only run on Windows and since she would be at the brick and mortar location full time, I figured we could multi-purpose a new laptop for her and have her switch to Windows. She hated it and begged for us to get a dedica…

I grew up using Windows but have been using Linux and Mac almost exclusively for the past fifteen years; the only exposure I get to Windows is when I have to play tech support for my parents [1]. I hated OS X when I first used it. A lot, actually. I didn't consider leaving my job over it (I couldn't have afforded it at the time even if I had wanted to), but I did think about trying to do an ultimatum with that employ…

> I did think about trying to do an ultimatum with that employer to tell them to buy me a computer with Windows or let me install Linux on the Macbook

> I refuse to allow anyone to run Windows in my house

So you don’t care for peoples preferences unless they match your own? I don’t get that. You were in the same position. Why don’t you just let people use what they like?

Re: Free software scares normal people

#452

Post by rob74 »

GTP wrote: post #416
marcus_holmes wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nightmare stories to tell of Access Forms from my time dealing with them in the 90's. The usual situation is that the business department hires someone with a modicum of talent or interest in tech, who then uses Access to build an application that automates or helps with some aspect of the department's work. They then leave (in a couple of cases these people were just interns) and the IT department is then cal…

> Spinning up a proper project to replace this application isn't feasible in the short term, because there are processes around creating software in the organisation, for very good reasons learned painfully from old mistakes, and there just isn't time to go through that. I assume those processes weren't applied when deciding to use this application, why? Was there a loophole because it was done by an intern?

Well, if someone (especially an intern) who is not in the IT department decides to write an application, it's pretty obvious that they are not familiar with (and therefore won't follow) the processes of the IT department. That's the problem with these more "democratic" development environments: if something is beginner-friendly, beginners will use it...

Re: Free software scares normal people

#453

Post by Hendrikto »

immibis wrote: post #186
fschuett wrote: post #127

> Free audio editing software that requires hours of learning to be useful for simple tasks. To be fair, the Audacity UX designer made a massive video about the next UX redesign and how he tried to get rid of "modes" and the "Audacity says no" problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYM3TWf_G38 So this problem should get better in the future. Good UX (doesn't necessarily have to have a flashy UI, but just a good UX)…

The problem with the new Audacity isn't the new version, it's that it replaces the old version. If the new version came out but it was called "DARing" and Audacity continued to be the thing we have now, people might question the name but no other eyes would be batted. Pre-emptive anti-snark: yes, the old version will still exist... if you can dig up the right github commit and still make it compile in 2030.

Had you actually watched the video or tried using Audacity, you would know that the option to continue using the old UI is there.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#454

Post by dspillett »

GTP wrote: post #416
marcus_holmes wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nightmare stories to tell of Access Forms from my time dealing with them in the 90's. The usual situation is that the business department hires someone with a modicum of talent or interest in tech, who then uses Access to build an application that automates or helps with some aspect of the department's work. They then leave (in a couple of cases these people were just interns) and the IT department is then cal…

> Spinning up a proper project to replace this application isn't feasible in the short term, because there are processes around creating software in the organisation, for very good reasons learned painfully from old mistakes, and there just isn't time to go through that. I assume those processes weren't applied when deciding to use this application, why? Was there a loophole because it was done by an intern?

Simple things, or even complex prototypes, get created in office apps because the office apps are their, have the flexibility, and you don't need to get IT to install something new (or allow you to), or convince finance to let you pay for something new, or convince compliance/security/other than the something new is safe anyway, etc. Also in a larger company, once the discussion of developing or buying something comes up lots of other potential stakeholders might raise their heads above the parapet and want to get involved (“Could our dept use this too?”, “We would need it to do Y as well as X…”, “That sounds useful, but it should be us doing it instead”, etc.), and suddenly the quick PoC that has been barely started has become a series of interminable meetings.

The loophole is that if you have Office or similar you have a variety of development environment, IT/compliance/finance aren't caring what files you produce with the applications you have, and no one else is paying attention initially either, but would have a say (and a procedure for you to follow) if you wanted to bring in or create a new application. The usual process is bypassed.

This is more commonly associated with Excel, but it applies to Access too (less so than it used to, but there are still plenty people out there who rely on it daily).

Once the demo/prototype/PoC is there it is a lot easier to “fix up” that than spin up a project in anything else, or get something else in that is already available, for the same reasons as why it was done in Excel/Access in the first place plus the added momentum: the job is already at least part way done, using something else would be a more complete restart so you need to justify that time as well as any other costs and risks.

[Note: other office suites exist and have spreadsheets & simple DBs with similar capabilities, or at least a useful subset of them, of course, but MS Office's Excel & Access are, for better or worse, fairly ubiquitous]

Re: Free software scares normal people

#455

Post by TeMPOraL »

skydhash wrote: post #435
TeMPOraL wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely the mistake I'm talking about. You think you're smarter than people on the ground, and know better how they should do their job. It's because of that condescending, know-it-all attitude that people actively avoid getting IT involved in anything, and prefer half-assed Excel hacks. And they're absolutely right. Work with them and not over them, and you may get an opportunity to improve the process in w…

The problem with hackish solution is that they get put in places they don’t belong. In other professions, there’s regulation in place to prevent these kind of shortcuts. Also, if you have ever worked with anyone trying to get specifications worked out, you’ll see that most people (including devs) rely on intuition rather than checklists and will always forget to tell you something that is critical. The thing is that…

> The problem with hackish solution is that they get put in places they don’t belong. In other professions, there’s regulation in place to prevent these kind of shortcuts.

That's an illusion. The reality is, it's all hacky solutions on top of hacky solutions. Even in manufacturing: the spec may be fixed, and the factory line produces identical products by the million - but the spec was developed through an ad-hoc process, and the factory line itself is a pile of hacks that needs continued tuning to operate. And there is no perfectly specced out procedure for retooling a factory line to support the newest spec that came out of design department - retooling is, in itself, a small R&D project.

> Also, if you have ever worked with anyone trying to get specifications worked out, you’ll see that most people (including devs) rely on intuition rather than checklists and will always forget to tell you something that is critical.

This is the dirty truth about the universe - human organizations are piles of hacks, always in flux; and so is life itself. The sameness and harmony we see in nature is an illusion brought on by scale (in two ways - at large scale, because we live too short to see changes happening; at small scale, because the chaos at biomolecular level averages out to something simpler at the scale we can perceive).

Order and structure are not the default. It takes hard work to create and maintain them, so it's better be worth the cost. The prevalence of Excel-based hacks in corporate is a proof positive that, for internal software, it usually isn't worth it, despite what the IT department thinks.

> The thing is that cost of changes in the business can be a simple memo. But for software that usually means redesign.

Which is why you shouldn't be building cathedrals that need expensive rework every other week because of some random memo. Instead, go down to where people work; see them tweaking their shovels, take those shovels and make the tweak they want the proper way.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#456

Post by TeMPOraL »

skydhash wrote: post #449
TeMPOraL wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mistake is in trying to understand the business case. There is nothing to understand! The business case is the aggregate of what people actually do. There is no proper procedure that's actually followed at the ground level. Workflows are emergent and in constant flux. In this environment, the role of a dev should not be to build internal products, but to deliver internal hacks and ad-hoc solutios, maintain them,…

It would be nice if the computers could be that nice to work. It’s a completely dumb machine that needs everything spelled out. Humans are very flexible. To get flexibility out of a computer require great effort. The main reason you want a computer is cheap emulation (cad, daw,…) or fast (and reliable) automation. Both requires great deal of specifications to get right.

That's not what most people use computers for at work. And it's not what magic Excel sheets and Access forms are made for.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#457

Post by GTP »

rob74 wrote: post #452
GTP wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spinning up a proper project to replace this application isn't feasible in the short term, because there are processes around creating software in the organisation, for very good reasons learned painfully from old mistakes, and there just isn't time to go through that. I assume those processes weren't applied when deciding to use this application, why? Was there a loophole because it was done by an intern?

Well, if someone (especially an intern) who is not in the IT department decides to write an application, it's pretty obvious that they are not familiar with (and therefore won't follow) the processes of the IT department. That's the problem with these more "democratic" development environments: if something is beginner-friendly, beginners will use it...

Yes, the intern will not follow the procedure, and likely isn't even technically required to do so. But, before the application becomes a tool actually used inside the company, there should be some quality control done.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#458

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

imtringued wrote: post #438
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a long story, in my case. There’s a very good reason for me to be asking for gratis work. I regularly do tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of work for free.

That only works if you form a team with the artist. It doesn't work when the person you're commissioning free stuff from is an external artist who is getting flooded by both paid and unpaid requests. Even a token amount will let them know to prioritize you over the freeloaders.

This is true. I have paid friends free market rates for work; even though they would have done it for free.

It’s a matter of Respect. It’s really amazing, how treating folks with simple Respect can change everything.

I like working in teams, but I also participate in an organization, where we’re all expected to roll up our sleeves, and pitch in; often in an ad hoc fashion.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#459

Post by int_19h »

valyala wrote: post #231
psunavy03 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is precisely why desktop Linux has not knocked off Windows or MacOS.

Omarchy tries resolving this https://github.com/basecamp/omarchy

I clicked on the link, and the first thing I see is a screenshot where half of the screen is taken by terminal with TUI apps in it. There's no "Install" button, and the "Download" one is labelled "ISO".

Yeah, no, that isn't it.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#460

Post by shevy-java »

I am not sure if I agree to the statement made, but one problem I found is that many people don't even understand the problem domain. Microsoft trained their brain to accept that they must be cashcows for them, so they don't understand that there may be alternatives. And let's be honest: Linux is still WAY too complicated for many elderly people to use.
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