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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#451

Post by tzs »

thewebguyd wrote: post #73
lovelearning wrote: post #45

Is CSA really that widespread in Europe that everyone's chat messages have to be monitored? And if it is that widespread, shouldn't they try to address it socially to prevent CSA as much as possible rather than try to catch just the subset of tech-savvy abusers, that too after they've already committed CSA?

Of course not, it's just a pretense for passing this law because its political suicide to instead say "We don't want to do any actual police work and instead want to create a massive surveillance state and monitor everything you say and do so we can better control our populations." CSAM is just the excuse, as it is with any other laws of this nature in the past.

What is "actual police work"?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#452

Post by hollerith »

mapontosevenths wrote: post #445
hollerith wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the French like the Americans in Afghanistan, were not defeated on the battlefield. They lost because they got tired of fighting the natives and the war had become politically unpopular. I don't see how your distinction is relevant. Since 1962, it has been the people the ALN wanted to have power (i.e., not anybody in Europe) who have made all the important policy decisions in Algeria. Since the Taliban took Kabul in…

It's relevant because the guns did not stop them from being invaded, or force the invaders to leave. A poorly trained group of insurgents can't defeat a modern military in battle. Politics were ultimately the thing that won the war, and if it happens here the results will be the same. Our 'well regulated militia' of gravy seals won't even slow the military down in battle, it will be up to the citizenry to wear them d…

It has been frustrating to dialog with you...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#453

Post by dpatterbee »

wpasc wrote: post #443
ycombigators wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

Are you certain the person you just replied to is not in a marginalised group? If that person is, would you be running afoul of that law with "Don't be a moron."?

[flagged]

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#454

Post by amarant »

palata wrote: post #419
thfuran wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part are you disputing?

The fact that ChatControl is killing democracies. It's a tool that could be abused, but I wouldn't say that it is enough to kill a democracy all by itself.

To make a silly analogy: A stone in go has 4 liberties. Take away all four and the stone dies.

Chat control takes away one liberty from democracy.

Ask any half decent go player what will happen to that stone if we just ignore the attack upon it?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#455

Post by protocolture »

DangitBobby wrote: post #102
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of constitution as a contract between the citizens and the state and the (judiciary?) Like, constitution both defines the rights of citizens and the limits of those rights and the same goes for the states. I feel as if the creators of constitutions think that it is a set of checks and balances... Just as if how a citizen violates something written in the constitution, the state can punish it. In the same mann…

A large portion of the population either does not believe or does not mind the violations of our constitution to achieve their desired outcomes. As an American, it came as a surprise to me that we do not, in fact, have broadly shared values about our system of governance. This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally.

My read on the US is that it could be 10 or more, functional independant states, or a single massive mess, and US citizens wake up every day and commit themselves to the mess.

Right wingers will look you straight in the eye and tell you that they support suppression of gun rights and speech when it hurts their enemies. Their enemies often live many states away. I have seen the entire country flip on an issue just because the context changes.

The bloodless resolution would be to just agree to not hang out anymore. But I think citizens of a once empire would feel somehow aggrieved to lose that empire. So you guys are going to have to figure this out after spilling a bunch of blood.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#456

Post by shuckles »

chickenimprint wrote: post #300
shuckles wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Apple attempted to anticipate these laws and propose a system which tried to navigate a compromise, the “pro-privacy” faction was so politically dumb they spread FUD about it and actively made sure no reasonable compromise could ever be reached. Now the public with reap what these advocates have sowed, good and hard. With regards to the FBI incident, Apple said at the beginning of their statement, “This moment c…

ChatControl is exactly what Apple did. It's client-side, so no one is able to see your messages. The police sees if content hashes match known CSAM.

See this is the type of hysterical flattening I was referring to. There is meaningful distinction in the details, such as Apple’s implementation being non-targetable, but if you think all client side scanning is the same you will concede everything.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#457

Post by shuckles »

MaKey wrote: post #380
shuckles wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Apple attempted to anticipate these laws and propose a system which tried to navigate a compromise, the “pro-privacy” faction was so politically dumb they spread FUD about it and actively made sure no reasonable compromise could ever be reached. Now the public with reap what these advocates have sowed, good and hard. With regards to the FBI incident, Apple said at the beginning of their statement, “This moment c…

What would you call a "reasonable compromise" between encryption and privacy?

One that doesn’t force every major cloud host to be blind to encrypted child porn on their hard drives.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#458

Post by stephen_g »

palata wrote: post #335
alkonaut wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But politicians are - in general - neither evil, nor do they have any real incentive to ”control citizens’ thoughts”. It doesn’t make sense. They can be gullible. Non-Technical. Owned by lobbyists. Under pressure to deliver on the apparent problem of the day (csam, terror, whatever). But I don’t think there is a general crusade against privacy. That’s why I think it’s so infuriating: I’m sure it’s not even deliberate…

> I’m sure it’s not even deliberately dismantling privacy. But it is not even dismantling privacy. ChatControl would run client-side and only report what's deemed illegal. Almost all communications are legal, and almost all of the legal communications wouldn't be reported to anyone at all. They would stay private. The problem I see is that the "client-side scanner" has to be opaque to some extent: it's fundamentally…

It's a mechanism where the Governments give lists of un-auditable hashes to chat operators and force them to send the content of messages to them when they match.

You can't for a second imagine how that could possibly go wrong?

The hashes are "only for what's deemed illegal" because just trust me bro. There won't be any false-positives because just trust me bro. Even if you do believe the Governments are fully trustworthy and don't care about false positives of your own personal images or messages being passed around law enforcement, most systems like this have usually also eventually been compromised by other parties (like CALEA which was used by China and other adversaries for years). Even if you fully trust the Government, we can't actually be sure the un-auditable list of hashes are only from them, or whether adversaries have compromised the system to add their own hashes. And we don't know that the mechanism that sends our private messages (from a real match, or a false-positive, or an adversarial added hash) are only going to authorised parties or if somebody else has managed to add themselves in (like has happened with "lawful intercept" systems in the past).

So even when claiming it's only for combating the most heinous crimes, the system is too dangerous.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#459

Post by mystraline »

palata wrote: post #422
mystraline wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only valid argument I see against ChatControl is that fundamentally, you cannot know what it is reporting. It's not like if there would be an open source list of illegal material together with the hashes, right? By definition, they must state what is actually illegal, lest I be hidden laws with hidden punishments. And those lists of 'illegal' need to be publicly disclosed, so we are aware. At least in the USA a…

> By definition, they must state what is actually illegal, lest I be hidden laws with hidden punishments. I don't need to murder you in order to say that murdering you is illegal, do I? Of course they don't have to publish CSAM material in order to say that this is illegal CSAM material. If you could go get CSAM material at your local library, nobody would be talking about scanning it with ChatControl...

Then from a picture, tell me what the exact age of the nude person is.

Again, we need to know the exact year and day. 17y364d is illegal but 18y is legal.

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