We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that • Hacker News Board

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#451

Post by close04 » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:22 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #409

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

>> The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. Short term maybe. But there are reasons people want(ed) to move to the USA, and I don't mean refugees. A lot of college educated well…

> But there are reasons people want(ed) to move to the USA, and I don't mean refugees

I think overall you are correct but probably still not safe to generalize. If you're moving to escape persecution then just being "on the other side" achieved this. If you are economically motivated then just leaving doesn't guarantee anything, you can be worse off. This circles back to the idea that the people who are persecuted by a regime paint the public opinion of that regime.

I have friends from Eastern Europe who emigrated to North America (mostly Canada) in the early '90s only to move back shortly after when the reality didn't live up to the hype and their expectations. They had a better life back home. The move was economically motivated, not escaping persecution. Many families under authoritarian regimes had the option to move to a Western country but not being actively persecuted meant they had no hard push and decided for the "comfort of familiarity".

East Berlin slipping into authoritarianism is a good showcase for this. Most people chose to stay in place for long enough to build a wall. We're talking years in which they saw the reality around them but only the ones who actively suffered from persecution chose to leave. Today plenty of East Germans still look back fondly at those times because they didn't feel the objective pain of persecution, only the subjective general suffering of "I could have better but don't".

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#452

Post by n4r9 » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:22 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #394

I don't think this is a very good article. She tries to address the primary rebuttal: > You may argue there's a fundamental difference between corporate tracking and government surveillance. Corporations compete; you can switch services. Governments have monopoly power and can restrict fundamental freedoms. By saying: > This misses three key points: First, switching costs for major platforms are enormous. Try leaving…

> People leave Google's ecosystem all the time; it's practically sport here on HN.

That supports the original argument if anything. If "Here's how I did X" generates interest on HN, it's quite likely that X is very challenging for the average person.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#453

Post by UncleSlacky » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:24 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #188

eloisant wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they can move anywhere in the EU, visa free.

Legally, yes. Practically, the EU still has borders and barriers. Language, pension systems, degree equivalence, etc. Oh and also remember that the EU has freedom of movement for labour, not necessarily people. If you don’t have enough money, you can’t just move to another EU country and hope things work out.

You can as long as it "works out" (i.e. you find a job) within 3 months.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#454

Post by anywhichway » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:26 PM UTC

pimlottc wrote: post #173

gruez wrote: post #29

There was a comment that appeared for a few minutes before getting deleted, that vaguely lined up with what I wanted to say. It didn't reappear, so I'll just repost it: >real life also has social credit. were you an asshole to the bartender last week? that goes to your reputation at that bar. did you volunteer with a local non-profit? that goes to your reputation with that organization. even without an algorithm, peo…

Real world social credit is soft and squishy and local and fades or changes over time. Digital social credit is (potentially) an automatically calculated number with strict and unyielding consequences that follows you around for your entire life.

A lot of digital ones are "local" too in that they are context specific. As long as it stays context specific, your Uber rating is closer to being liked by your local bar tender than it is to the Chinese social credit system. Even your local bartender has a little context leakage.

I agree there is a scarier potential there. And also some do, on occasion, escape their context (mostly credit score). They also have bigger contexts, but not so big that I would jump to the Chinese social credit comparison.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#455

Post by jamesnorden » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:29 PM UTC

drnick1 wrote: post #139

pipo234 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about banking apps? In my part of Europe a growing number of banks require installing an app via Google or Apple story. The Android ones are known to use sdks that at full of "telemetry". Cash is no longer an alternative.

Can you not use a browser to access banking services? If not, you should vehemently complain and/or move to another bank. And while cash is better for privacy, you can always use a credit card instead of your phone.

You may be able to at the moment, but web banking is being increasingly phased out in a lot of countries.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#456

Post by lurk2 » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:30 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #441

lurk2 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trust in the justice system has severely degraded. Among whom? By how much? Since when? > Trump's deportation program. The people being deported are not lawful residents. It is not even remotely comparable to the situation the GP is describing.

They’re deporting green card holders now.

“Now” implies that this wasn’t being done before. It has always been legal to deport a green card holder over criminal convictions. Are you suggesting that ICE is rounding up these green card holders for the crime of being Mexican and throwing them back over the wall? This seems to be what you want people to believe. I’m aware of at least two cases where naturalized citizens were deported without having their status revoked, but in both cases these deportations were found to be illegal and damages were awarded. This might look like an indication of malice on the part of ICE until you realize that there is something like 40 million immigrants living in America.

If you have any concrete figures demonstrating the systematic abuse of the deportation process, I’ll encourage you to share them.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#457

Post by bluedevilzn » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #258

bluedevilzn wrote: post #226

I moved from Canada to California for a new job with a mid six figure salary. I had a very difficult time finding a place to rent as I had no credit score. Only places that were available without credit score was a room to share. That was not an option with a cat, wife and kids. Finally, I found a place that was willing to accept the entire year's rent up front. Moving such a large amount of money from Canada to US h…

> We already live in social credit but I fear the ones maintained by companies might be better for the consumer. Seems to me to be dependent on how the incentives line up. A credit bureau WANTS you to part with any money you might have for a car. So it works out when they control the issuance of your loan. But would you want the NRA to control the social credit system regulating a firearm purchase?

Yes…

If you read the comment, you’d notice that there were no loans involved whatsoever.

If you can’t rent or buy a car without a credit score, you should only be allowed to buy a gun until you have proven that you’re a trusted member of the society.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#458

Post by dotnet00 » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:35 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #431

dominicrose wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Day-to-day life depends on your social class. I wouldn't want to be in China earning minimum wage. There are also crazy countries like Iran and North Korea.

Earning minimum wage is a very bad situation in many democratic countries, the US included. There's nothing special to China in this regard. There's very little real data on day to day life in NK, mostly fantasizing by the West, but what do you think is day to day life in Iran? I doubt it's crazy. It's probably a lot like in many other countries. Iran is not a hell-hole.

It's been a little over a decade since I lived there, and yes, it was not all that crazy.

As a foreigner I was generally expected to stay away from big protests when they flared up, and internet connectivity sucked (though this was also a time when the world was less dependent on near-constant internet access). Otherwise it was pretty much like any other "middle-tier" country.

I was a teenager back then, so it was especially nice in certain ways: Tehran was pretty safe, so I had a lot of freedom to get around unsupervised that I later did not have in some other "more free" places.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#459

Post by insane_dreamer » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:45 PM UTC

insane_dreamer wrote: post #294

I agree with the article's assessment that the US also has a social credit scores, but: - it's not at all the same as an aggregated government-assigned score (though we may be on the road to that) - the take of "things are so bad in China and basically the same here" are very naive; live in China for 5+ years and I guarantee you'll have a different view

oops - I mistakenly omitted the word "not"; meant to say "things are not so bad in China and basically the same here"

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#460

Post by antonvs » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 1:47 PM UTC

hax0ron3 wrote: post #236

pharrington wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of what ICE has been doing for the last six months? And that Trump has militarized Washington DC?

Yes, but ICE is not deporting, denaturalizing, or imprisoning US citizens for their political opinions, and I would have very little to no fear about going to Washington DC right now, standing up on a podium, and yelling that Trump sucks while there are 100 National Guardsmen across the street from me. This is very different from what things are like in places like Russia.

I'm happy for you as a privileged US citizen, enjoying your privilege as someone who's at least currently on the right side of the line, but anyone who's a legal immigrant doesn't feel anywhere near the same degree of security that you do.

The administration recently announced that it will review the visas of 55 million immigrants, and factors like political opinion are on the table when it comes to their choice of who to go after.

"First They Came"[1] was written to try to wake up people like you, whose privilege blinded them to the significance of the events around them. You need to start paying attention before you lose the country you thought you knew.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came