Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 585 posts

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#451

Post by jacksnipe »

wagwang wrote: post #447
lawlessone wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101

[flagged]

Sorry, but citation needed. Means testing might seem “obvious” from first principles, but from a policy point of view, it makes little to no sense.

The macroeconomic effects of welfare programs create a society that is better for everyone to live in. Reducing the issue to a matter of personal responsibility is a reframing that allows you to completely lose sight of the big picture, and create programs that are destined to fail by not reaching many of the people they need to.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#452

Post by worik »

duncans wrote: post #111
ThisNameIsTaken wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is particularly striking about the scandal is the impact of the mini-series. From what I understand (as a foreigner to the UK) is that it was the mini-series that sparked national interest in the case. Without it, those involved would still be in a bureaucratic and legal nightmare, in which all institutions rejected their innocence claims, and hardly anyone would have been held accountable. See also the "Impact"…

It's worth pointing out that Mr Bates vs The Post Office screened in early 2024. The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry was set up in 2020/2021 and the public hearings started in 2023. So it may have looked like "it was TV what done it" but the wheels of justice were turning long before the show came out.

The Guardian was reporting this for years, that I saw

Private Eye too, I hear

The TV programme made it a political football

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#453

Post by nothrabannosir »

veeti wrote: post #340
burkaman wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling someone a robber means they are currently a robber. It can be inaccurate and untrue in the same way that calling someone a bartender would be inaccurate and untrue if they are a lawyer who hasn't tended a bar in 20 years. I don't like the idea of prosecuting people for this, but I don't think it's illogical.

Would you extend the same courtesy to a murderer or child rapist?

Just in case this is a leading question: there are many courtesies we extend some but not all people convicted of a crime. Bail, parole, etc.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#454

Post by stretchwithme »

jacksnipe wrote: post #451
wagwang wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sorry, but citation needed. Means testing might seem “obvious” from first principles, but from a policy point of view, it makes little to no sense. The macroeconomic effects of welfare programs create a society that is better for everyone to live in. Reducing the issue to a matter of personal responsibility is a reframing that allows you to completely lose sight of the big picture, and create programs that are destin…

Citation needed for the right to other people's money.

Government running charity interferes with the normal feedback in society. And the need to ask politely, justify one's apparently bad decisions and change failing behavior.

People become "entitled" to regular cash so a lot of the fear that ordinarily motivates the rest of us goes away.

Any system that asks nothing of people is a bad system.

I grew up on welfare. I've also seen how a lot of people on welfare actually live and how they spend their time. They don't spend it cleaning, I can tell you that.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#455

Post by EngineeringStuf »

akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

I really do agree.

I was a lead Technical Architect and authority on behalf of HM Treasury for a while, and I will tell you this: this is just the tip of the iceberg in government procurement.

I've witnessed faulty systems in DVLA, DEFRA, DWP, Home Office, MOJ and Scottish Government. Systems that have directly resulted in suicide, false convictions, corruption and loss of money to the public purse.

The problem with Horizon and Fujitsu is that in the end the government has to sign it off, and there will be someone who is the Accountable Officer (AO). More often than not, all parties (customer and supplier) become incredibly motivated to protect the AO because it protects profits, protects reputational damage and essentially builds a good news story around the whole thing.

It's just elitism, wrapped up in cronyism, veiled in lies so that AOs can fail upwards into positions with suppliers. I've seen it too many times and I'm fed-up with it. Government is completely and utterly corrupt.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#456

Post by comprev »

lboc wrote: post #24

A good summary from the UK IT trade publication that broke the story: https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-s... Not sure if this requires sign-in/subscription, so apologies in advance. I did neither and have access to the full article.

Paywall removed: https://archive.ph/OZeED

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#457

Post by nilamo »

veeti wrote: post #340
burkaman wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling someone a robber means they are currently a robber. It can be inaccurate and untrue in the same way that calling someone a bartender would be inaccurate and untrue if they are a lawyer who hasn't tended a bar in 20 years. I don't like the idea of prosecuting people for this, but I don't think it's illogical.

Would you extend the same courtesy to a murderer or child rapist?

Why is such a person wandering around free if they were convicted? Do you think prison sentences are not harsh enough?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#458

Post by LocalH »

stretchwithme wrote: post #454
jacksnipe wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but citation needed. Means testing might seem “obvious” from first principles, but from a policy point of view, it makes little to no sense. The macroeconomic effects of welfare programs create a society that is better for everyone to live in. Reducing the issue to a matter of personal responsibility is a reframing that allows you to completely lose sight of the big picture, and create programs that are destin…

Citation needed for the right to other people's money. Government running charity interferes with the normal feedback in society. And the need to ask politely, justify one's apparently bad decisions and change failing behavior. People become "entitled" to regular cash so a lot of the fear that ordinarily motivates the rest of us goes away. Any system that asks nothing of people is a bad system. I grew up on welfare.…

Administration of means testing is often more expensive than doing away with the means testing.

How about UBI coupled with repealing the minimum wage?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#459

Post by h2zizzle »

wagwang wrote: post #447
lawlessone wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101

[flagged]

The general logic is that money is going to be taken from people no matter what (crime, expensive late interventions, etc.) and that relatively preventative measures are preferable because they cost less while preserving the social contract.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#460

Post by insane_dreamer »

rossant wrote: post #207
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades. [1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402

Reminds me somewhat of the child sex abuse hysteria in the 80s/90s involving daycare centers and the many horrific accusations that people took at face value and without question, being (rightfully) concerned for the wellbeing of the children. It was finally understood that it was relatively easy to plant false memories in young children through suggestive questioning. People went to jail for years before their convictions were overturned, and the impact on society lives on.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/us/the-trial-that-unleash...

Post reply on HN