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The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

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Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#451
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the first society, the probability of the artist completing and selling that masterpiece is correspondingly lower, since money is a strong motivator and even artists have bills to pay. Thus the first society tends to create less value overall, since value creators are demotivated by punishing taxation. Because of that, prospective buyers for that piece of art will be overall poorer so they will bid less for it, pu…

> In the first society, the probability of the artist completing and selling that masterpiece is correspondingly lower, since money is a strong motivator and even artists have bills to pay. I live near the (supposedly) largest art market in the USA, and I know a large number of artists here for whom two things are true: 1. they cannot make a living from just their art. 2. they will create art whether they make a livi…

Taking advantage of self-driven people and stealing the results of their hard work is something communist dictators tried quite hard. Also brainwashing people to work their asses off for some other reason than the selfish one.

It didn’t work. The society produced less and less value, crappier and crappier quality, uglier and uglier and grayer and grayer.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#452
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the first society, the probability of the artist completing and selling that masterpiece is correspondingly lower, since money is a strong motivator and even artists have bills to pay. I live near the (supposedly) largest art market in the USA, and I know a large number of artists here for whom two things are true: 1. they cannot make a living from just their art. 2. they will create art whether they make a livi…

Taking advantage of self-driven people and stealing the results of their hard work is something communist dictators tried quite hard. Also brainwashing people to work their asses off for some other reason than the selfish one. It didn’t work. The society produced less and less value, crappier and crappier quality, uglier and uglier and grayer and grayer.

If you think that Bezos was motivated to create amazon because the taxes were just-so, you're delusional.

There are numerous books on this topic. Obviously not everyone agrees with them, but Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards" is an excellent starting point for reading about what we know about the connections between motivation, creativity and rewards.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#453
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the first society, the probability of the artist completing and selling that masterpiece is correspondingly lower, since money is a strong motivator and even artists have bills to pay. I live near the (supposedly) largest art market in the USA, and I know a large number of artists here for whom two things are true: 1. they cannot make a living from just their art. 2. they will create art whether they make a livi…

Taking advantage of self-driven people and stealing the results of their hard work is something communist dictators tried quite hard. Also brainwashing people to work their asses off for some other reason than the selfish one. It didn’t work. The society produced less and less value, crappier and crappier quality, uglier and uglier and grayer and grayer.

Also, none of my artist friends would say that they were being "taking advantage of". I have no idea why you'd try to connect the situation I've described in the US art world to communist dictators, other to make some facile point that isn't relevant or even correct.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#454
Interesting article. This is the key takeaway for me:

"U.S. firms are at a further disadvantage in that their foreign competitors benefit from sustained government incentives to invest in advanced industrial equipment."

True then, and true now. If you want to buy a machine, you are basically on your own, and machine financing isn't favorable, it's on the contrary somewhat predatory.

But this article was written prior to Haas really taking off in the 90s and 2000s, and I think Haas has been somewhat successful in selling into North America, if only for relatively cheap, low-quality, general-purpose machines.

And, if you extend the axis of that graph back past 1980, I think Germany, Japan and the UK were dominating advanced machine tool manufacture since their industrial revolutions. I am not convinced that USA was EVER a real leader in advanced machine tool manufacture, I think it was always traditionally imported. Correct me if I am wrong. Sure, the Americans made crappy low tech Bridgeport mills and engine lathes by the millions, then relied onto that technology for 100+ years (and are still trying to make it work). The Haas vertical mill is the new Bridgeport mill, it is 30 years behind state of the art, and American industry is still buying that en masse.

I think that the computer industry was successful enough in the 1990s, American policy makers were essentially OK with losing ground in the machine tool industry. Then the computer industry also got offshored.

But remember! The equipment and production lines were originally shipped offshore wholesale, the production lines can get shipped back, but American land, energy costs, wages, taxes and other input costs are too high to make it work (without protective tariffs).

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#455
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car centricity is the main culprit [0] https://m.youtube.com/shorts/0dKrUE_O0VE [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHlpmxLTxpw [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TheOkz8oF_I

As opposed to the beautiful car-free utopias found in suburbia and the countryside?

Suburbia is absolutely part of the problem

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are thinking about it as an individual instead of as a state. If you put yourself in the position of Louis XVI as the King of France, it makes more sense.

You are probably thinking of Louis the XIV[0] (not Louis the XVI) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_mercantilism

You are correct, I was too lazy to look it up and I eyeballed the timeline.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if we're lucky, one of these sophomores will have an epiphany that military protection and a stable currency are some of the most complex exports , and that getting imports by trading away a self-created currency is a pretty great way to not give away any gold or silver... Just sayin'.

It's funny because the US right wing (and a huge part of it's so-called left, too) keeps trying to portray US global military power as the opposite. As charity for us ungrateful Canadians and Europeans It's completely backwards from how people usually perceive empires. And from what it is. Which is a projection of power to ensure the supremacy of American capital interests. Which is why US GDP per capita etc is incre…

GDP per capita is also a lot larger because the USA has convinced the rest of us into thinking hedonic and imputed GDP is real.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how would increasing the cost of labor mean that we have more manufacturing jobs in the US today?

Giving labor better bargaining means higher pay for employees and so they need to work less, which leaves room for more employees. Better working conditions also leads to a better and bigger pool of candidates who are interested in your work and industry. Giving labor more power also makes it far harder to offshore their work and the higher pay for everyone improves local economies and induces more local demand. Havi…

that is just not how microecon works.

raising the marginal cost of labor lessens the amount of labor hired. there is no scenario in which it leads to more people working the job. unionized labor did not make it harder to offshore - in fact it accelerated offshoring, automation, and a shift to manufacturing in the South of the country.

having lower costs of goods usually benefits the economy more than more prosperous labor (not necessarily the local economy), although the net welfare increasing thing is context dependent. in competitive markets, vast majority of labor cost decreases are captured by the consumer.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny because the US right wing (and a huge part of it's so-called left, too) keeps trying to portray US global military power as the opposite. As charity for us ungrateful Canadians and Europeans It's completely backwards from how people usually perceive empires. And from what it is. Which is a projection of power to ensure the supremacy of American capital interests. Which is why US GDP per capita etc is incre…

GDP per capita is also a lot larger because the USA has convinced the rest of us into thinking hedonic and imputed GDP is real.

The GDP per capita comparison talking point keeps getting brought up as "why Canada is an economic failure" -- frustrating because it really isn't a good analysis.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#460
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I keep seeing people advocating that the idea that we should build everything, and every piece or everything, here is a good one. Why? Is this just an isolationist dream? No. There needs to be balance. We are way past the balance point, by far. When I say "we" I mean the US and Europe. We have the same problems, and I believe Europe is in far greater danger to be absolutely decimated in the next two to five decades…

This only stops when China equalizes. The real shame is our country is not such a nice place to live, when we enter our phase as a less-advanced country. We always had brilliant immigrants and democratic ideals to keep the ball rolling. What now?

> This only stops when China equalizes.

Not sure what that means. There are many potential outcomes that could be defined as "equalizes".

At one limit, no country in the world, except for China, has a solid industrial base. In other words, nobody makes anything except for China.

OK, then their standard of living continues to increase. Got it.

In, say, 50 years, the cost of doing business in China starts to become less competitive. This, assuming no manipulation. This creates an opportunity for other nations to return to participation in various industrial sectors. However, this also means fifty years of utter destruction around the world. This also comes with loss of skilled workforce, manufacturing plants and the infrastructure necessary to support industrial activities.

Regrettably, by that time, most industrial capacity around the world would have been utterly destroyed. So, this reentry into manufacturing will likely be characterized by making low value products. For example, making screws, wire, some types of clothing, etc. Assembly operations might also make sense for lower tech products. This will only make sense if shipping parts from China to country X and then assembling there is economically viable. Tough to predict five years from now, much less fifty.

This process of "equalization" (in quotes because it really doesn't have a solid definition) most likely brings with it a further and non-trivial destruction of economic drivers in the US and Europe (and everywhere else). This, in turn, will result in terrible outcomes and economic collapse of the kind these societies are not used to (this is certainly the case in the US, Europeans have gone through serious consequences of the world wars).

I will not claim to be smart enough about these things to understand what the solution might be. Go to Walmart or shop on Amazon and it is impossible not to come out thinking that the damage is done and must of this is not reversible. I don't know. What I do know is that something has to change or things are going to get worse, much worse. We are not going to float entire economies on the back of AI and data centers.

I have always found the aspects of the history of Argentina have serious parallels with how large western economies have damaged themselves from the inside. Coincidentally, I just came across a nice and concise historical perspective of how this country went from being one of the top economies in the world to barely having the industrial output and economy to survive. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=jGnl4Re8Gpk

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