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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#451

Post by bbwbsb »

adastra22 wrote: post #404
adastra22 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ziz method of indoctrination involves convincing his minions they are trapped inside a mental framework they need to break free of. Trans people already feel trapped in a body not aligned with who they are, and are naturally susceptible to this message (and therefore natural targets for recruitment).

Following on because the edit window elapsed, the specific method of indoctrination used by ziz (but invented by Gwen) involved in novel method of sleep deprivation to induce split personalities. It’s been called “installing demons.” I wouldn’t be surprised either if the causality is the other way around: Ziz reworked these people to be trans. Ziz certainly seems to have treated the minds of the people around him/her…

Wow what a blast from the past. Sounds like /r/Tulpas. I've always thought it was a purely rhetorical trick + disassociation, and obvious what is happening and why. Sleep deprecation has always been part of it since that makes it harder to notice the errors at the edge of your perception. It goes back to at least the 2010s I think.

There is some precedent; the Twin Flame cult coerced transition in some members if I remember correctly. My guess is it was emotional manipulation used to make them do something that makes them more vulnerable to control. If you transition and you are not trans, you are going to have a hell of a lot of dysphoria, and shaming people and telling them it's because they are not trying hard enough/a good enough person/etc. would absolutely make it hard to break away.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#452

Post by LeroyRaz »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

I mean, isn't the problem that they actually aren't that smart or rational. They're just a group of people who've built their identity around believing themselves to be smart...

They're also not freethinkers. They're a community that demand huge adherence to their own norms.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#453

Post by wslh »

smeeger wrote: post #432
hollerith wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My explanation for why Eliezer went from vocal AI optimist to AI pessimist is that he became more knowledgeable about AI. What is your explanation? I've seen the explanation that AI pessimism helped Eliezer attract donations, but that does not work because his biggest donor when he started going public with his pessimism (2003 through 2006) was Peter Theil, who responded to his turn to pessimism by refusing to contin…

correct. there isnt a single well founded argument to dismiss AI alarmism. people are very attached to the idea that more technology is invariably better. and they are very reluctant to saddle themselves with the emotional burden of seeing whats right in front of them.

> there isnt a single well founded argument to dismiss AI alarmism.

I don't think that's entirely true. A well-founded argument against AI alarmism is that, from a cosmic perspective, human survival is not inherently more important than the emergence of AGI. AI alarmism is fundamentally a humanistic position: it frames AGI as a potential existential threat and calls for defensive measures. While that perspective is valid, it's also self-centered. Some might argue that AGI could be a natural or even beneficial step for intelligence beyond humanity. To be clear, I’m not saying one shouldn’t be humanistic, but in the context of a rationalist discussion, it's worth recognizing that AI alarmism is rooted in self-preservation rather than an absolute, objective necessity. I know this starts to sound like sci-fi, but it's a perspective worth considering.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#454

Post by Rebelgecko »

kurikuri wrote: post #386
all2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel. As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

[flagged]

Yikes, I know you don't mean to come across this way but some people might interpret your comment as tone policing from a place of privilege

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#455

Post by o11c »

llamaimperative wrote: post #420
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't think that you need to be a Christian to empathise They're saying that a minority of evangelists and rapey priests have been making Christianity look bad for decades.

FWIW I don't think it's so much the minority of directly guilty parties, but the institutional circling of the wagons when someone is caught. This often seems to extend to literally the tippy top of whatever congregation it occurs in (including e.g. the Pope). But in any case, yeah: you don't have enough information from this type of stuff to make good judgments about individuals in any scenario.

Despite what news headlines love to say, I'm not sure "circling the wagons when someone is caught" has been accurate in the English-speaking world since the 1990s. Often it's more "please don't blame the people who had no knowledge and who had already made rules that would've prevented the situation if actually followed." By far the majority of pedophiles are lone operators within the organization.

Two things that are obvious when explicitly stated but unintuitive otherwise:

* Abusers deliberately target people with a poor reputation; particularly, a known history of lying about other matters.

* If the group does their own investigation, the media will condemn them for it. If the group leaves the investigation up to the government, the media will condemn them for it.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#456

Post by LeroyRaz »

nejsjsjsbsb wrote: post #208
rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

What you said should be happily accepted verbatim as a guest post on any rationalist blog because it is scientific and shows critical thinking.

How is it scientific? What do you mean by scientific?! Do you mean logical?

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#457

Post by [deleted] »

bbwbsb wrote: post #451
adastra22 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following on because the edit window elapsed, the specific method of indoctrination used by ziz (but invented by Gwen) involved in novel method of sleep deprivation to induce split personalities. It’s been called “installing demons.” I wouldn’t be surprised either if the causality is the other way around: Ziz reworked these people to be trans. Ziz certainly seems to have treated the minds of the people around him/her…

Wow what a blast from the past. Sounds like /r/Tulpas. I've always thought it was a purely rhetorical trick + disassociation, and obvious what is happening and why. Sleep deprecation has always been part of it since that makes it harder to notice the errors at the edge of your perception. It goes back to at least the 2010s I think. There is some precedent; the Twin Flame cult coerced transition in some members if I r…

[deleted]

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#458

Post by anon84873628 »

umeshunni wrote: post #403
CamperBob2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of random and illogical, what prompted the Border Patrol to stop their car in the first place, I wonder? None of the news stories have elaborated on that.

The FBI report says it was a traffic stop. The milemarker 168 seems to be about 10 miles from the Canadian border. https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/albany/news/fbi... More information from the police report: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wycOK3UbaQ9JWZuvo2gpZiDT-0t... On January 20, 2025, at approximately 3:00 pm, an on-duty, uniformed United States Border Patrol (USBP) Agent initiated a stop of a blue…

>The registered owner of the vehicle, Felix Baukholt, a citizen of Germany, appeared to have an expired visa in a Department of Homeland Security database.

Presumably the BP had a license plate scanner and this triggered.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#459

Post by bbwbsb »

positus wrote: post #282
watwut wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also openly hated by general society and targeted for bullying by major political actors.

Most people don't hate trans people, they just think they believe things that do not correspond to biological reality; ie. they have an illness that is negatively affecting their mind and they need compassion and help. Those same people want to minimize social exposure to provably contagious, harmful, and absurd ideas like gender fluidity.

The thing being pathologized here - gender fluidity - is at its heart nothing more than willful insubordination. Hate doesn't require anger, and control isn't love.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#460

Post by PaulHoule »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #408
all2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel. As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

[flagged]

My best friend in college knew she was a woman when she was a small child (though her mom and her birth certificate disagreed.) Nobody was going to talk her out of it. She got kicked out of the Air Force Academy on account of it. The nation's loss was my gain because she was the most awesome engineering student and science fiction fan and after working in many military-industrial complex jobs she's working on a project to return a sample home from the moon.

My son has two friends. One fell under the spell of blackpill incels, thinks he is not tall enough even though he's an inch above the mean, wants to break his legs to extend them and get taller, hasn't talked to my son for two years because my son said what his real height was in an online chat. Rumor has it he's taken anabolic steroids (but hasn't done any weighlifting or athletic training.)

The other fell under the spell of a self-described "egg-hatcher" who "aggressively" (his friend's word) worked on him for a year and a half to convince him that his being out of sync with other people was a sign he was trans. I knew him pretty well as an elementary school student and he didn't give any sign of variant gender identity then, although like my son and myself he was always a little 'weird'. (He uses a different pronoun and name at his job but tells us it is OK for us call him 'he' and use his own name so we do.) He's taking a cocktail of drugs that gets prescribed via telemedicine and was telling us about the serious side effects he was suffering: one of these drugs, spironolactone, is primarily a drug that alters your mineral metabolism but has the effect of suppressing testosterone if you take 20x the normal dose. (My doc gives it to me for my blood pressure.) He has insatiable cravings for salt as a result.

I completely believe my transsexual friend from college is for real. I believe my son's transgender friend is making a mistake; I support him as an individual and feel I owe him a lot as a person I knew from a young age but I believe he's a victim of a cult-like movement, as is my son's first friend.

(Note a lot of Christian people are brought into it by their family before they're able to make a choice by their own judgement)

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