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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#451

Post by cma »

mike_hearn wrote: post #169
cma wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be defeated by a simple password without any TPM. I've only met one person who's phone was stolen. They grabbed it while it was unlocked and within minutes aft…

That's how it works now exactly because hardware security ("DRM") on phones is so good that grabbing phones whilst unlocked is the only way to beat it. For most of the history of phones, they would be pickpocketed or taken from bags, luggage, hotel rooms etc without you ever seeing the thief. This is a huge upgrade, and nothing to sniff at. I also had someone try to grab my phone out of my hand and run off whilst wal…

Depends which is more valuable, the phone or the potential scams. With no hardware security you'd just have a standard USB stick to root it and get the same access to the logins and contacts, or you'd take it right to an underground shop that did. And you could sell the hardware on top of that, making theft that much better.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#452

Post by advael »

rustcleaner wrote: post #441
advael wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "tax" like this is essentially equivalent to a fine, and a fine is a price Also, companies can just price the additional cost in, blame the government for the price increase, and mislead consumers about the tradeoff being made. A ban is harder to do that about

Yep and you can come in and make a fully open and compliant competitor product, because your closed and uncompliant incombent is forced to charge a price which should give you enough margin to succeed. I am admitting that yes closed beats open at money extraction/harvesting from customers, which is why you only ever see closed hardware. The whole idea is to kneecap business models which depend on handcuffing owners w…

Yea but you know what's even better than a tax? Not being able to release those products onto the market. I really doubt products whose "value-add" is lock-in would be able to survive black-market dynamics. But Apple, Google, Microsoft, John Deere, what have you can totally afford extra taxes, and they probably even have the market power to just foist those increases on their customer base and not lose them because they're effectively a captive market in the current regulatory regime, and that's also the kind of market power that makes it so that you don't have to compete on price. I consistently can get cheaper laptops by seeking out ones that don't include windows licenses, but this clearly hasn't affected the laptop market much

Also, let's say I'm gonna undercut someone on price for electronic devices. Unless I'm starting from a place of great personal wealth and don't take any capital at all, this needs investment, which means that an obvious solution to any scenario in which I'm meaningfully harming the bottom line of one of these incumbents could just be buy it out from under me, which is indeed how this generally plays out in the real world

If we are serious about regulating monopolies, we have to understand that remedies that rely on raising operating costs are simply always going to be ineffective

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#453

Post by nine_k »

notpushkin wrote: post #421
nine_k wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, with DRM, you can't make and sell a player that allows to skip ads, ignore regional limitations, etc. If you do, your key is revoked. Pirating high-res videos already requires special hardware to remove HDCP. It's cheap now because HDCP is notoriously weak. A future standard may start needing a $500 device, or even a $5000 one.

> No, with DRM, you can't make and sell a player Is it still relevant nowadays? I thought most people just went to online streaming, and you don’t need DRM to enforce all that stuff there. > Pirating high-res videos already requires special hardware to remove HDCP. That is true, and a new standard might make it harder for a few years, but: 1. The switch won’t happen overnight, which means pirates would still use HDCP…

Yes, nearly every TV is now "smart", that is, contains a player, something like Roku.

Controlling that is worth quite something.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#454

Post by mardifoufs »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #339
dvngnt_ wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's only one person releasing cracks for modern denuvo and their last release was a year ago, and they're crazy

Apparently the people doing this kind of work have been disproportionately in Eastern Europe and what's going on in Ukraine has so disrupted that part of the world that they currently have bigger problems. So then you're waiting for either that region to stabilize or demand for cracks to cause people somewhere else to get into the game, and in the interim you effectively have a temporary supply chain issue. But it's…

Who was cracking denuvo on a regular basis back in say, 2021, before the war started? Basically no one. So I'm not sure that's true.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#455

Post by advael »

rustcleaner wrote: post #440
advael wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the idea is to ban the practice for smaller players without the scale to eat the costs? No thanks, an outright ban is necessary. This will not prevent manufacturers from doing business no matter how they may whine about it, and frankly if this does somehow kill their business it should

The idea is to make it almost completely commercially unviable to sell locked down DRM hardware to small players, and only somewhat harder for XYZ Healthcare to buy the multimillion dollar GE MRI machine unless the MRI is fully open and compliant (XYZ can borrow and amortize, but Joe can't do that to buy playstations and cars).

Wait so you're saying that it's important to allow predatory business models to continue in the industries that do the most harm through constant consolidation to support ballooning costs?

Like the healthcare system's consolidation and scale that allows it to deal with massive extra costs and the degree to which that system is beholden to predatory technological models is if anything a great motivating example for the potential benefits of a ban

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#456

Post by mike_hearn »

kuschku wrote: post #409
mike_hearn wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That device makes no mention of stripping HDCP and I can't find any evidence it does that on the maker's website. What makes you think it will strip HDCP?

> I can't find any evidence it does that on the maker's website. I believe that's intentional (it would be illegal to import if it was advertised). > What makes you think it will strip HDCP? I've got 6 in use for lecture/talk recording without worrying about HDCP. Especially useful for presenters casting to chromecast or presenters using macbooks with DRM software (as blackmagic SDI converters don't support HDCP at a…

But lectures probably aren't DRM protected? HDCP isn't always on.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#457

Post by mike_hearn »

lxgr wrote: post #407
no_time wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that This is exactly my problem. Before ideas like this surfaced, the demarcation line between who controls what was purely based on ownership. The machine that I own acts only on my behalf and in my best interests, the server that you own does so for you (or atleast for PCs this has always been the case) TPMs, attested bootchains and whatnot trample on this whole…

Fully agreed on attested bootchains. General-purpose level OS-wide attestation is indeed a blight on open computing: It's ineffective because it implies a gigantic trusted code base (what are the odds that the entire Windows kernel is completely free of vulnerabilities?), and conversely it does tie you to somebody else's more or less arbitrary kernel build. Almost complete disagree on TPMs. A better comparison than a…

Attested boot chains aren't normally being used to attest a whole general purpose OS. They attest up to a small hypervisor that allows partitioned worlds to be created and chain attested, and then sensitive computations are done inside that.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#458

Post by kuschku »

mike_hearn wrote: post #456
kuschku wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't find any evidence it does that on the maker's website. I believe that's intentional (it would be illegal to import if it was advertised). > What makes you think it will strip HDCP? I've got 6 in use for lecture/talk recording without worrying about HDCP. Especially useful for presenters casting to chromecast or presenters using macbooks with DRM software (as blackmagic SDI converters don't support HDCP at a…

But lectures probably aren't DRM protected? HDCP isn't always on.

You'd think so, but it's not even close to true.

For example Macs and RedHat systems require HDCP if you've used Spotify or Apple Music since the last reboot (which applies to most speakers).

Some Chromebooks can't provide direct display out but cast to a ChromeCast instead, which also always requires HDCP.

We've also had talks on media and cultural studies which use a clip from e.g. a Netflix or Amazon Prime show as part of their talk. HDCP is almost guaranteed in this case.

If your HDMI chain signals that it can't handle HDCP, some computers will obey that (and downgrade or stop playback). But most broadcast HDMI tech can't even signal that HDCP is unavailable, so you'll get HDCP by default.

That's why every major venue, university or event has HDCP killers stockpiled. For 1080p60 that used to be cheap chinese HDMI splitters, nowadays it's mostly these Hagibis cards. If they're really fancy they'll have an HD Fury with HDCP removal license, but those cost ~$600.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#459

Post by ethbr1 »

mjg59 wrote: post #450
ethbr1 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's value in that, but it's a lesser value than the risk of normalizing manufacturer locking of computing devices. Because the immediate next step after locking devices down is profit extraction from users. Do you think Apple would have been able to maintain their App Store margins absent device control?

So don't normalise manufacturer locking. We're not going to prevent the bad thing from happening by arguing against the hardware that enables the bad thing - we're going to need to argue against the bad thing.

I would if I trusted them, but IMHO ever device manufacturer is looking at their slim hardware margins and wishing they were fat software margins.

There's simply too much incentive for abuse.

The only way I personally could see supporting them is if there were first a legislative requirement that trusted modules always be user-modifiable.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#460

Post by ethbr1 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #384
mike_hearn wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an FSF level understanding. Android devices are fully open and you can reflash them to whatever OS you want. Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that, but nothing is locking you out of your device . As Android dominates the global market, you already live in that world where most devices are open.

> Android devices are fully open and you can reflash them to whatever OS you want. It doesn't matter. Those devices fail hardware remote attestation. > Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that, but nothing is locking you out of your device. The device's purpose is to be used. If it can't be used without giving up things like banks and private communications, it won't be used. Device is not locked, it…

As an example of the excess here:

Marriott (the hotel brand) shipped a release of their Android app that refused to run on unlocked devices.

It probably didn't impact the majority of (locked) Android devices, so why would Marriott care?

And with one app update, a valid user configuration became less capable.

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