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CockroachDB license change

cockroachlabs.com

451–460 of 476 posts

Re: CockroachDB license change

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but are there any AGPL-licensed libraries? I've only seen runnable binaries licensed under AGPL. I can theoretically imagine one, "if you want to build a server application using my binary, I don't want you hiding my source code from your users", but even GPL-licensed libraries are rare, LGPL is more common.

Not a whole lot, at any rate. The poster child was probably BerkleyDB, but the current version is vended from a fork which still uses the pre-AGPL license terms

> Not a whole lot, at any rate. The poster child was probably BerkleyDB, but the current version is vended from a fork which still uses the pre-AGPL license terms

It is "dual licensed". AGPL and proprietary license according to Wikipedia

I am unsure how that works...

Oracle

Re: CockroachDB license change

#452
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately the Apache Foundation structure has some (an unspecified number greater than zero) "kill all the Muslims now!" Yuk. It is a trap to condem the foundation because of some people who are nasty outside the foundation If they were enabled to stand in the way of Mahdi Islam, or their mates participating then there would be a problem We have a problem in tech with naive fascists and fascist enablers. We mus…

>We have a problem in tech with naive fascists and fascist enablers. No we don't.

[flagged]

Re: CockroachDB license change

#453
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have a problem in tech with naive fascists and fascist enablers. No we don't.

[flagged]

>Peter Thiel

Not a fascist nor fascist enabler.

>Elon Musk

Not a fascist nor fascist enabler.

Swing and a miss. Glad I could clear that up.

Re: CockroachDB license change

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the kind of question that only really gets answered when a judge rules on it. The pertinent question here is roughly whether the combined docker image constitutes a "derived work" of the AGPL software

This was probably true of v2, but v3 doesn't refer to derived works. In OP's scenario they didn't modify the AGPL code, so there's nothing to release.

The FSF has substituted the phrase “modified works” in place of “derivative works” in v3 of the license, yes, but not to narrow the definition - the intent was to broaden the definition to cover additional classes of modification.

From the FSF’s licensing FAQ:

> Where's the line between two separate programs, and one program with two parts? This is a legal question, which ultimately judges will decide. We believe that a proper criterion depends both on the mechanism of communication (exec, pipes, rpc, function calls within a shared address space, etc.) and the semantics of the communication (what kinds of information are interchanged).

Re: CockroachDB license change

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are welcome to choose that, but in my opinion, it isn't open source. I think open source should means anyone can contribute or take, and contributions are shared, without undue discrimination. Nobody is forced to work on the project, but if they are then they have to give the results of their work back to the common pool they took from. You have just as much power to keep the project going as anyone else does, in…

> but if they are then they *have to* give the results of their work back to the common pool they took from Well, here we go. Your "open" isn't so open in the end.

"open is when you have the right to make it closed"

Re: CockroachDB license change

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was probably true of v2, but v3 doesn't refer to derived works. In OP's scenario they didn't modify the AGPL code, so there's nothing to release.

The FSF has substituted the phrase “modified works” in place of “derivative works” in v3 of the license, yes, but not to narrow the definition - the intent was to broaden the definition to cover additional classes of modification. From the FSF’s licensing FAQ: > Where's the line between two separate programs, and one program with two parts? This is a legal question, which ultimately judges will decide. We believe tha…

> The FSF has substituted the phrase “modified works” in place of “derivative works” in v3 of the license, yes, but not to narrow the definition - the intent was to broaden the definition to cover additional classes of modification.

Eben Moglen wrote a little about the intent here [0], I'll excerpt a little:

"This form of explanation was unfortunately unhelpful. It led to years of fruitless discussion about the role of “derivative works” doctrine (a US concept) in software (where US courts have largely failed to provide any guidance). So in GPLv3, we and our clients at the Free Software Foundation decided to drop all illustrative reference to US “derivative works,” returning to the base concept only: GPL covers the licensed work and all works based on the work, where “based on the work” is defined as any modification or combination with the licensed work that requires copyright permission to make."

I don't know if that broadens or narrows, but I think that's the point: case law on "derivative works" was pretty vague (I'm unfamiliar but I'll take Moglen's word). But, to me it sounds like an effort to be more concrete rather than an effort to broaden the conditions under which you have release obligations.

> From the FSF’s licensing FAQ: ...

A couple things.

First, this FAQ entry is about aggregation; the paragraph above what you quoted is this:

"An “aggregate” consists of a number of separate programs, distributed together on the same CD-ROM or other media. The GPL permits you to create and distribute an aggregate, even when the licenses of the other software are nonfree or GPL-incompatible. The only condition is that you cannot release the aggregate under a license that prohibits users from exercising rights that each program's individual license would grant them."

This isn't some kind of "I run a Kubernetes cluster" situation, it's a "I ship a Linux distribution on ISOs" situation.

Second, I was in a different GPL thread [1] discussing some similar things, but all contracts, licenses, statutes, and founding documents have ambiguity in them. I listed a couple reasons (authors can't/don't want to exhaustively enumerate every scenario, human language is imprecise) but I realized I omitted a third reason: times change. You generally want whatever you're authoring to last a little while, not only because legal fees are expensive, but also because relicensing isn't always easy (GPLs have clauses in them letting you additionally license them under any later version, I would assume this is why).

And finally, there's a real double standard--or at least cargo culting--when it comes to the GPLs here. Here's some ways other licenses are ambiguous or potentially unbounded in their coverage:

- Apache License version 2: refers to "derivative works", also: "'Object' form shall mean any form resulting from mechanical transformation or translation of a Source form, including but not limited to compiled object code, generated documentation, and conversions to other media types." (i.e. does minification count?)

- BSL: also refers to notoriously vague "derivative works"

- SSPL: defines propagation partially with the phrase "in some countries other activities as well."

It's true the GPLs are more complex and ambitious than something like the ISC license (the favorite comparison around here, I think) but that license is something like 100 words. It's not comparable.

[0]: https://softwarefreedom.org/resources/2014/SFLC-Guide_to_GPL...

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41277241

Re: CockroachDB license change

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have a problem in tech with naive fascists and fascist enablers. No we don't.

We have a problem with "he may be a really shitty person but we ignore that because he does the work". In some cases where that person does a lot of work, it may be unavoidable. In other cases where the person does only a small amount of work, it's a mistake not to push back on their bad beliefs. A similar but opposite problem is pushing back too much on things that don't matter. E.g. a core python developer and inve…

>We have a problem with "he may be a really shitty person but we ignore that because he does the work".

Social human endeavours where different people of different backgrounds come together to work towards a common goal universally suffer from this. This is in no way specific to software development communities. So I disagree, it's not a problem specific to the aforementioned domain.

>In other cases where the person does only a small amount of work, it's a mistake not to push back on their bad beliefs.

Therein lies the issue: no one person has a say on what is considered a "bad belief." This is exceedingly difficult when you work with persons whom are not from or steeped in west coast SV culture. Europeans do not have the same sensibilities as someone from San Francisco.

>E.g. a core python developer and inventor of Timsort just got a 3 month suspension for liking a comedy skit that used the word "slut", and for thinking that it's possible to discriminate against white people.

Just read about this. Incomprehensible.

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