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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#451
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to "kill their users" but they realistically have meeting to vote on whether the system is "go/nogo". This is the basic structure of many aerospace designs. If you ever watch a rocket launch, they are literally checking in with every system owner for that decision. Prior to even getting to the launch date, there are meetings where they are checking with the designers for similar decisions. There are good document…

Yea and with challenger only one engineer raised the alarm while a large group of well meaning engineers overrode him. This is reality. Decisions aren’t kill/not kill.

Yeah we both agree that the decision isn’t “kill/not kill”.

It’s much more ambiguous and murky, especially when dealing with low probability events. That’s why it takes expertise, but it doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be accountability for those “expert” decisions. Other engineering domains already have this, there isnt anything that makes these decision inherently different.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#452
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prosecutors are not supposed to drop the ball intentionally if the judge rejects the deal. They are supposed to work the case. Practically, their career would be affected by it too.

There are nuances between jurisdictions, but while a US judge can reject a plea deal they generally cannot reject a guilty plea. A judge cannot force a trial between parties that don't want one. And a trial isn't really possible where the parties agree the facts. The judge can certainly impose a sentence different than that which was agreed between the parties, but any such punishment would have to be based on the ag…

People committed the crimes but Boeing is making the deal, which we haven't seen. I don't understand how "a company" can plead guilty to a crime but shield individuals?

Can I form an LLP before I rob a bank?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#453
post #432
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in the "corporations as people" x "criminal justice system" vein, I would be in favor of moving towards a standard where, if a person convicted of the same crime would receive a prison sentence, a company should be forced to cease operations for an equivalent period, and put all its assets into frozen fund which can only be used to pay out debts/obligations, and which earns no interest.

As bad as this is, nobody wants an Airbus monopoly, so let’s hope that individuals are arrested and Boeing continues to exists instead.

Then nationalize Boeing's commercial airplane unit and put the people who actually want to build quality airplanes back into leadership.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want to be able to point to such consequences as to why we shouldn't be dangerously cutting corners. And even if you only punish engineers it will decrease the pool of talent / cost effectiveness of workers available to the unscrupulous managers such that cutting co…

When you start criminally charging people for mistakes in critical systems, what you're going to get is coverups. With a no-fault system, mistakes are not covered up, but fixed. With a fault system: 1. if a mistake is discovered, it will not be fixed because that would be an admission of criminal liability. 2. Quality will not be improved, because that is (again) an implicit admission that the previous design was fau…

P.P.S. My work was checked by others, like the stress group, my lead engineer, and the test group.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#455

Regarding the "Can/should a CEO or officer be held liable?" dialogue, there is already at least one precedent. The 2002 Sarbanes-Oxley (SOX) Act: > The law states that if top corporate executives knowingly sign off on a false financial report, they’re subject to a prison term of up to 10 years and a fine of up to $1 million, with penalties escalating to 20 years and $5 million if their misconduct is willful. [0] Now,…

Actually in most places, technically as president/CEO of a firm you are already liable for any criminal conduct by your firm/employees-on-the-job. The corporate lawyers should have clearly warned them about this already. Additionally, any criminal lawyer should have warned Boeing people it is often around a 10 year jail term for criminal negligence. Unless the president/CEO can prove they enforced policy to mitigate…

> criminal negligence

It is beyond criminal negligence, because Boeing was charging extra to make the MCAS system redundant, which it should have been in the first place.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#456
post #447
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As bad as this is, nobody wants an Airbus monopoly, so let’s hope that individuals are arrested and Boeing continues to exists instead.

I think the DoD should make clear that the funds previously marked for Boeing would be open for new firms even if staffed by former Boeing employees -- provided diligence checks find no involvement by those parties in the current fraud case. Boeing, if it had no prospects of continued DoD contracts, would naturally want to offload teams and facilities dedicated to that work. If this situation was handled right, it co…

> the funds previously marked for Boeing would be open for new firms even if staffed by former Boeing employees

> delivering a very clear message to shareholders and C-suite officers that this sort of conduct will not make them rich

And the best way to make that point is to create new investment opportunities that will make some former employees of the same company and many of the same investors rich?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

Such decisions are way above the pay grade of random engineers

They aren’t in these industries. Relatively low-level engineers have the capability (some would say duty) to stop work. Typically, they have a different chain of command for that very reason.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#458
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want to be able to point to such consequences as to why we shouldn't be dangerously cutting corners. And even if you only punish engineers it will decrease the pool of talent / cost effectiveness of workers available to the unscrupulous managers such that cutting co…

You had the privilege of being able to quit the job over ethics / concerns. I'm assuming you didn't wind up homeless with starving children. I have definitely not always had that in my career and many people don't.

I have ME/CFS which means for most of my life I've barely been able to make enough in the good times to cover the extended bad times. Running out of money for me is basically a death sentence as it would become increasingly impossible to dig my way out of such a hole. Normal people at their worst could probably stack shelves or wash dishes for a living but that option is not available to me. I'm better at managing my condition now but at the time I quit jobs for ethical reasons I did so knowing that if I didn't find something else quickly then I would eh. end up taking a long walk on a short pier. To make matters worse I'm highly noise intolerant and have to spend more money to live in quieter places otherwise my already precarious health would rapidly deteriorate.

As engineers we are often responsible for the creation of assets more valuable than ourselves and I think it's an essential part of the job to put our lives on the line in much the same way an airplane passenger does. And as engineers we are often also airplane passengers ourselves and must trust that other engineers that they too have put our safety ahead of their personal wellbeing.

As the middle class is crushed then sure, such ethical boundaries will fade out of necessity, and I see this as part of a descent into a low trust society and why I expect more planes to fall out of the sky, both metaphorically and literally. Once a culture tolerates such flexible ethics the boundaries will continue being pushed - there isn't a lower bound. This corruption inhibits the creation of valuable assets and will result in a massive erosion of our standard of living.

An often touted solution is Universal basic income (UBI) that would create a safety-net for engineers and those with my type of disability - but having experienced constant gaslighting on ME/CFS from doctors informed by state funded research and given the expansion of Canadian MAID style solutions to people like myself I'm very fortunate that the capitalists opportunities existed such that I did not have to rely on state 'care'.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#459

Seems an extremely soft ball approach: • Under the deal, Boeing agreed to pay a $243.6 million fine and for an third-party monitor to be installed to monitor the company’s compliance. ~$240M seems pretty low for an industry where billions are commonly thrown about. • The deal spares Boeing from a trial just as the planemaker is trying to turn a corner in its safety and manufacturing crises. Sparing them from a trial…

For spilling a hot coffee cup you get $ 2.7 million worth of punitive damages. But for killing more than 200 people and trying to hide the evidence, we'll charge you 200 million and call it a day. That's less per person than the price of a hot-coffee spill.

Please learn the specifics of the case before regurgitating this low effort trope.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. His plea deal was rejected. That is not the same thing.

Right. Plea deals are "I'll plead guilty and save you the trial in exchange for this sentence ." Depending on the court, plea deals can be a horrible gamble by a defendant. Generally you have to enter your guilty plea first, and then the judge decides if they want to let you have that sweet, sweet sentence the prosecution offered. I know someone who went to court having been offered a plea deal for probation and got…

Yeah, this shocked me when I learned it. The actual "deal" is the defendant agrees to plea guilty in exchange for the prosecution giving a specific recommendation of sentence. (In most cases, there are some exceptions of course)
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