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Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

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Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always get the Sam Bankman-Fried vibes from him

SBF is dramatically less scary than Altman. Which is why he’s doing 30+ for being likewise a crook but dramatically less dangerous to Enlightenment civilization in the large. SBF was trying to pocket the difference on a regionally lax regulatory climate. Felon? Sure thing. By all means, hand down a sentence. It’s fraud. Altman has blown straight past the “personal financial gain” fraud line multiple times and has ama…

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Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#452
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you need to be an asshole to invent a dishwasher or an MRI machine. The usefulness alone lets you sell these. AI on the other hand...

Invention is one thing, a product to sell is almost an entirely different thing. The more I see the more I realise that being technical is almost all the time the least important part. You need to get people around you to succeed. In practice that means investors so that you can hire and people with the right connections so you can get sweet deals. You need people skills not inventions. And a bit more fake it until y…

That's only the VC angle. Plenty of revolutionary products will find adoption without playing the SV startup playbook. I think it's time to reevaluate the startup business "wisdom" of these past 15 years in the light of the companies and founders "role models" it has produced over that time frame. Good at making money, obviously. Holding the promise of making society better? I'll let you judge. As for me since I've read from Zero to One I have a sense I have been duped. I was once grateful for HN for opening my eyes on marketing. Now I'm hangover at how it perverted everything.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has seen any AGI so far. As far as I am concerned, right now it is just a scarecrow used by sociopaths like Altman et al to promote their self-interests.

No one had ever seen nuclear weapons when they had only been theorized. I'm just assuming that since networked computers are everywhere, models seem to be proliferating and natural general intelligence seems to function as a resilient, distributed system, it's not unthinkable to me that things eventually trend in that direction.

Scientists had understanding of nuclear fission and how nuclear physics work. It was theoretically possible before it became practically feasible.

We have no idea what intelligence really is ("resilient, distributed system" is not universally accepted as definition, even more to really mean something outside of analytic definitions if such have any use at all, to say the least), how it works, how a theoretical system could function as "generally intelligent" in concrete terms. Intelligence as we know it is a property of living organisms. It is a phenomenon. What "artificial intelligence" may even mean and if it is possible to create "intelligence" artificially is mere speculation. We face real existential threats that are not mere speculation, as we do not even know whether the ways we affect the planet may lead to a habitable environment for humans or not.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not aware of the machine learning researchers responsible for the core technology threatening to leave. Who were they? Ilya Sutskever, Alec Radford, Wojciech Zaremba, Nick Ryder, Mark Chen, ... how many names do you want? >90% of the company threatened to leave.

Sutskever was one of the people who fired Altman to begin with. Him joining the pile-on when it was already clear how big it is was pretty much surrendering to the mob, and was perceived as such even at the time.

It’s so much weirder than that. Reportedly, Greg Brockman’s wife begged him in tears to change his mind. Ilya presided over their wedding.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#455
post #391

Technology has replaced religion but fills the same purpose now. It’s of course heresy to blaspheme against the prophets proclaiming the new AI church in one of the largest digital temples, but it’s true. We gather in these halls to HN Show the miracles delivered through the marvels of our digital lord at our mortal hands, we furiously discus the deep philosophical questions such as Microservice vs Monolith, spread l…

This comment gets a rare favourite.

I fear both the protestant puritans and the heresy seeking inquisitors!

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On paper the board has the power and it’s their job to monitor and hire/fire the execs. But they’re dependent on the execs for info. It's way worse for the OpenAI board position in this case, because the company is basically just an assemblage of researchers, engineers, and Microsoft Azure credits. They can replace the CEO if they want, but all the value of the company can walk away if they don't like it.

> the company is basically just an assemblage of and . They can replace the CEO if they want, but all the value of the company can walk away if they don't like it. This is generally true of any company

Not really. There are long term contracts, IP, infrastructure and product moats. OpenAI has virtually none of that.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s utterly mundane, completely common knowledge for those who have been around long enough to have watched both the start and end on Loopt that Altman is a dark-triad sociopath with one marketable skill: (in pg’s words) “becoming powerful”. Guy can’t code, can’t design, can’t publish, can’t climb a traditional corporate ladder with even modest guardrails against fraud, can’t keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Can…

I think it might be time to turn back the clock a bit and revisit some of the things pg said way back when he was pitching Sam Altman to lead YC and the general reaction was "...who?" 2008: "You could parachute [Sam Altman] into an island full of cannibals and come back in 5 years and he'd be the king. If you're Sam Altman, you don't have to be profitable to convey to investors that you'll succeed with or without the…

I think your premise is false. Yes, you can give examples of people that weren't very ethical and built successful products (like Gates and Jobs), but there are numerous examples of the opposite - many wonderful products done by people and teams who did nothing wrong (yet!).

I even think believing this idea (you need to be ruthless to succeed) is dangerous. And if you behave like a boss from the 90s at some point you will be exposed. I've seen places where these people rule and they only have high turnover with the exception of these few shops where investors are funneling tons of money so employees just stopped caring.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#458

Kind of ironic that people are jumping in here to defend Sam Altman on the message board of Y Combinator, which also fired him from an executive leadership role for similar reasons.

[flagged]

Goes to character

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#459
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cool technology" here means things like dishwashers, or MRI machines, which pretty much strictly improve people's lives, not slightly better advertisement algorithms.

I don't think you need to be an asshole to invent a dishwasher or an MRI machine. The usefulness alone lets you sell these. AI on the other hand...

There is more than usefulness to it. Take what became social media later but what at the beginning was just a means for friends to have many-to-many async conversations instead of only 1:1 in an easy way. This was useful, I have no doubt about this. Yet the final product sold is something quite different, and in some cases can hurt people instead of benefiting them.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#460
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you need to be an asshole to invent a dishwasher or an MRI machine. The usefulness alone lets you sell these. AI on the other hand...

Invention is one thing, a product to sell is almost an entirely different thing. The more I see the more I realise that being technical is almost all the time the least important part. You need to get people around you to succeed. In practice that means investors so that you can hire and people with the right connections so you can get sweet deals. You need people skills not inventions. And a bit more fake it until y…

I think that this is true, and I hate it. In a previous job, I had to work with the worst (shop)-framework I have ever seen. It is very expensive, over-engineered in the worst ways, very slow and awful to use. The blatant misunderstanding of software architecture principles in that software is hard to put into words. For example: It took an experienced developer two weeks and more than 2000 LoC in more than 40 files to add a new label to a product. But the company creating this mess is good at marketing, and their events are great.

A few weeks ago one of the guys (a freelancer) who stayed in that project was on an event of a competitor to this shop framework. After that event, he said that their software was way better, but it wasn't interesting enough for him to invest in learning that system. In his opinion, their marketing is not good enough, and they won't be able to sell it to important companies.

So we are stuck with bad products because they apparently sell better than the good ones.

The developers in the company I mentioned first even knew beforehand that the software was bad. They were "included" in the decision process, and they all voted against the bad software and preferred another solution (it was before my time, and I don't remember if they told me what they actually wanted to use). But the manager who made the ultimate decision had such a good time with the guys from the bad product that he decided to go with it.

I know a lot of good developers and people who can sell themselves really well. Sadly, these two groups hardly overlap.

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