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Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

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Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#451

Post by Thorrez »

whilenot-dev wrote: post #447
Thorrez wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really the other way around. That's 2 ways of stating basically the same thing.

I'll have to disagree... the goal is to stop encouragement , rather than to start discouragement - stopping acceleration is not the same as starting deceleration.

When it comes to acceleration, it's possible to define 0 acceleration. So we can define acceleration and deceleration in relation to that 0 acceleration.

What is 0 encouragement/discouragement? It's not obviously easy to define. One definition is doing nothing = 0 encouragement and 0 discouragement. By that definition, not removing graffiti (aka doing nothing) is not encouragement, it's simply doing nothing: a lack of encouragement and a lack of discouragement.

Because we haven't agreed on a definition of 0 encouragement and 0 discouragement, saying "decreasing encouragement" and "increasing discouragement" mean basically the same thing.

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#452

Post by OfficeChad »

carstenhag wrote: post #191
DeathArrow wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't vandalism an offense in Germany?

These guys know the city in and out. Only in cases where you already expect them, you could be able to catch them. Also, police always has to prove you did it, and not some other member of the group. https://youtu.be/Y9Lm0dkkVAw?si=NDHBYtciFPDhp78I

[dead]

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#453

Post by lukan »

adrianN wrote: post #449
lukan wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If something can be heard miles away, it usually means it is very loud close by. And this could be reduced.

Indeed, but you don't need to do stuff to tracks that are miles away from homes.

Yes, but in crowded germany, there aren't that many tracks "miles away from homes".

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#454

Post by whilenot-dev »

Thorrez wrote: post #451
whilenot-dev wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to disagree... the goal is to stop encouragement , rather than to start discouragement - stopping acceleration is not the same as starting deceleration.

When it comes to acceleration, it's possible to define 0 acceleration. So we can define acceleration and deceleration in relation to that 0 acceleration. What is 0 encouragement/discouragement? It's not obviously easy to define. One definition is doing nothing = 0 encouragement and 0 discouragement. By that definition, not removing graffiti (aka doing nothing) is not encouragement, it's simply doing nothing: a lack o…

> By that definition, not removing graffiti (aka doing nothing) is not encouragement, [...]

"Doing nothing" results in encouragement in the broken windows theory:

  Under the broken windows theory, an ordered and clean environment, one that is maintained, sends the signal that the area is monitored and that criminal behavior is not tolerated. Conversely, a disordered environment, one that is not maintained (broken windows, graffiti, excessive litter), sends the signal that the area is not monitored and that criminal behavior has little risk of detection.
In my understanding stopping encouragement is maintenance work, while starting discouragement is social work. And by doing the (simpler) maintenance work a (costlier) social work won't be necessary.

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#455

Post by wiether »

lqet wrote: post #4

> a transparent noise barrier Most rail noise barriers in Germany are completely covered in graffiti [0], so I wouldn't expect them to remain transparent for more than a few weeks. [0] https://ga.de/imgs/93/8/5/9/3/0/9/1/9/tok_8596521c60eeaa53ee...

And those vandals are doing this for a while now!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_art

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#456

Post by whilenot-dev »

Thorrez wrote: post #451
whilenot-dev wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to disagree... the goal is to stop encouragement , rather than to start discouragement - stopping acceleration is not the same as starting deceleration.

When it comes to acceleration, it's possible to define 0 acceleration. So we can define acceleration and deceleration in relation to that 0 acceleration. What is 0 encouragement/discouragement? It's not obviously easy to define. One definition is doing nothing = 0 encouragement and 0 discouragement. By that definition, not removing graffiti (aka doing nothing) is not encouragement, it's simply doing nothing: a lack o…

To add a bit.. the gist of the broken windows theory is that the world (environment) evolves even without you or me. A broken window is an action demanding a reaction. If no reaction is taken, "doing nothing" will be read as the reaction. I think that's fascinating!

There's also the same analogy to refactoring in software engineering. If a project is well maintained with every incoming feature, then a big refactor epic won't be necessary.

"The stop of encouragement will prevent the start of discouragement" doesn't mean that the reverse is true ("the start of discouragement will promote the stop of encouragement"). So it isn't stating basically the same thing.

The big irony in social studies with the broken windows theory is that discouragement often feels easier to practice than maintenance to an outsider. Or, in analogy to software engineering, a one time big refactor feels easier to do than continuous maintenance, as all the work actually included in a refactor (team syncing, product without features etc.) is mostly overlooked during the development if maintenance is not well practiced.

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#457

Post by infecto »

popol12 wrote: post #435
infecto wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence other than your anecdotal evidence that a lightweight passenger train creates less noises then a heavy load freight? I am sure there are some differences in regards to design and age but wouldn't you imagine the majority of the difference is in weight? Passenger trains weigh nothing.

Just adding my own data: I’ve been living next to a train station for a few years now, I’d say that freight is insanely more noisy than passenger trains, 100% of the time. I live in France btw, so it’s all electric trains.

No argument there. Freight is not designed for comfort or sound.

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#458

Post by infecto »

lukan wrote: post #395
infecto wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I don't do youtube anecdotes. I think you missed my point, my fault. Passenger trains and individual train cars do indeed weigh considerably less than fully loaded freight. So yes....its not nothing but they are easily double the weight. Leading to my point that when you are 2.5x+ the weight, its a different engineering problem along with an issue of economics. Freight cars are not loud only because of age but…

"It is hard to compare a passenger train with a freight train, entirely different beasts." Hm, for me they are quite simimlar. Just one was build to be more silent mainly for passenger comfort (it is inded nicer in the modern silent ones) and the other for most weight. But you could optimize freight trains for silence as well. All the loud metal scratching noises for example are avoidable, even with more weight. The…

Glad you agree with me then. It’s not about just buying new trains.

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#459

Post by close04 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #416
close04 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it just boils down to the right to property and having your own stuff just the (legal) way you want it. It's all great until your stuff gets destroyed because someone thinks it's better a different way. And when the graffiti is truly spectacular you can find some consolation in the result, maybe truly appreciate it. But that's not the case 99.99% of the time. Most graffiti is just trash, some rando spraying the…

It's usually on public property, or sometimes on corporate property. I don't think I've seen much graffiti on some private individual's property. It's not on the front of people's houses. > Most graffiti is just trash People say that about modern art, and about that crazy 'rock'n'roll'!

> It’s usually on public property

Which gets cleaned up with public money that could be used elsewhere, or stays there as an eyesore.

> It’s not on the front of people’s houses.

Sometimes the sides too.

> people say that about modern art, and about that crazy 'rock'n'roll'!

Did you just compare modern art and rock and roll to the few letter “tag” sprayed in 10 seconds again and again hundreds of time throughout a city? Because that’s what 99.99% of graffiti is, simple tags and doodles [0][1] anyone can make.

Charitably I’ll say you just didn’t pay attention to tagging’s aesthetic effect on a city. The less charitable alternative seeing the “tag = modern art + rock and roll” opinion is that you’re one of the “artist”.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fy...

[1] https://cooltourspain.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/tag-gra...

Re: Deutsche Bahn introduces "MetaWindow"

#460

Post by Moldoteck »

helboi4 wrote: post #243
Moldoteck wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

majority of ppl voted for some party, a party that gave consent to place/allow billboards, so indirectly, you gave consent. In the graffity's case - even the ruling party didn't gave consent, it's that they don't have resources to penalize and clean this mess

That implies that there was a party available that would ban billboards. There isn't, so graffiti is a way of actually taking back agency over our public spaces by underrepresented counterculture. Deal with it.

Most clasic graffiti to me look like trash left on the street, it doesn't convey the 'taking back of public space'. I like some graffiti concepts like in Berlin where ppl pay some artists to paint something over their building or some cool looking art on walls even when it's illegal/not approved (but would like to just go the approval way, or push for adding laws for such cases). But in the case of those random words/letters that maybe do have a meaning for some ppl - those are perceived by a lot of ppl just like trash, not a counterculture. Related to billboards- there are many places where cities do have a design code that basically forbids most of billboard types, esp in city center and it's not like you can't create your own party to push for this idea. If you don't gain votes, that means ppl are ok with billboards
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