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Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

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Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#451

Post by robocat »

_yb2s wrote: post #294
_huayra_ wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always recommended hobbies that meet the following criteria 1. Don't require you to interact with screens 2. Require your full attention (e.g. if you were listening to a podcast while doing it, you wouldn't remember a single thing they were talking about) 3. Has a social aspect, but is also possible to do on your own 4. Preferably physical 5. Preferably has some level of "controllable danger/risk", e.g. mountain…

Great criteria! I strongly recommend sailing also as a hobby meeting these criteria- although wind surfing is a type of sailing. Zero equipment or money is required because most people that race sailboats are always looking for crew, and are happy to take on a novice that is excited to learn. I think people often turn away from sailing because it's seen as an expensive elitist thing for wealthy people, but the truth…

> happy to take on a novice that is excited to learn.

Agree. With zero background in wind-sports I joined a crew. The yacht owner mostly just wanted someone that would turn up reliably - we had one guy who was terrible on the boat but he was reliably there. Good mixture of backgrounds of the crew.

I really enjoyed being part of a team sport.

The main cost was committing to one day a week. I got cheap gear (jacket, gloves) and currently I use a summer wetsuit to stay warm and dry (cold water in our Banks Peninsula harbours).

> climbing, skiing, mountain biking, surfing, windsurfing

Suggested by previous comment. But they are not team sports. I am a developer and those sports are good and social but they are focused on your own personal skills.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#452

Post by _yb2s »

GuB-42 wrote: post #445
_huayra_ wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always recommended hobbies that meet the following criteria 1. Don't require you to interact with screens 2. Require your full attention (e.g. if you were listening to a podcast while doing it, you wouldn't remember a single thing they were talking about) 3. Has a social aspect, but is also possible to do on your own 4. Preferably physical 5. Preferably has some level of "controllable danger/risk", e.g. mountain…

I fly light aircraft and that's exactly what I think. One thing I may add is commitment and responsibility, as in, if you are careless, people may die, including yourself. In most software work, with all these tests and reviews and backups, you don't have that, for very good reasons, but it kind of feels like what you are doing is inconsequential.

How did you get into this hobby and what does it take? Sounds amazing

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#453

Post by VelesDude »

Starlevel004 wrote: post #425
freedomben wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…

His manifesto is crying about SJWs 40 years before the concept existed. There's nothing insightful in there at all.

Yeah that part is weird. He did clarify later on that it wasnt meant to just be them but more of an example of over socialisation.

27 years in the slammer to clear up some ideas means there is A LOT of additional reading material from him in form of letters, essays and books.

It seems the longer he thought about it the more he could not find a path to stop technology progress but figured we just need to ride through it until collapse, if that happens.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#454

Post by VelesDude »

tmarsden wrote: post #393
freedomben wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…

Completely agree, his ideas could stand on their own there was no need to push them with violence.

He used violence to get attention on the ideas. What this did was stifled his goals by decades all for his own selfish gains. Did more damage than good by his own definition of success.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#455

Post by deathanatos »

isametry wrote: post #293
skeeter2020 wrote: post #290

Nothing destroys your love of a hobby, even one that you are passionately (or even obsessively) dedicated to, like making it your job. I LOVE riding bikes but all the BS of working in software is preferable to trying to support my love of bikes within the broader industry of bikes. The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck.

Isn’t “hobbyist” the exact word you’re looking for?

Well, amateur is the word. It's literal meaning is only that you're not a professional, i.e., one whose profession is that:

> A person attached to a particular pursuit, study, science, or art (such as music or painting), especially one who cultivates any study, interest, taste, or attachment without engaging in it professionally.

(Wiktionary.) It just also can be used to derogatorily refer to a "low" skill level (Someone who is unqualified or insufficiently skillful., same), but the non-ad hominem definition doesn't have that connotation.

E.g., in the ballroom dance community, the "amateur" category is filled with people incredibly talented, I'd estimate with like 8-10+ years of experience. They're amazing to watch.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#456

Post by Karrot_Kream »

chasd00 wrote: post #446
ryandrake wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, that linter thread was wild! Sometimes I think we are totally pampered and out of touch! I've cleaned McDonalds bathrooms, worked in a plastics factory where the chemical stench left my nose nonfunctional for weeks, hauled heavy sacks of shingles up onto a roof in 100+F degree summer temperatures. I am utterly grateful and consider it a lucky privilege to now be typing into a computer in a climate controlled off…

I don't mean to pile on but i feel the same when software devs here talk about how becoming a farmer is their salvation from their workplace suffering. As a kid I remember watching my cousin lie on his back with a stick welder underneath a horse trailer in 105F Texas summer heat. No thanks, i'll stick with my coffee, desk, and computer. edit: different strokes for different folks, i don't want to sound too presumptuo…

A lot of the folks working in these bigger tech companies didn't grow up this way. A lot of them grew up in wealthy families, lived in wealthy neighborhoods, were pushed into an elite tech career by their parents, went to elite pre-university schooling, elite universities, etc and have never had to feel monetary scarcity. Just look at HN comments and see how many 3rd generation programmers there are. As an adult with savings working at bigger tech companies and never having experienced hardship or poverty as a child, the prospect of following your dream feels alluring.

I grew up in poverty myself but my partner and many of my friends at bigger tech companies grew up the way I discussed earlier. Most of them were pushed through their parents' social circles into a tech career and never were wanting for money. They feel the grind inherent to being paid for your time as opposed to volunteering your time and think of it as an injustice. My partner and friends complain constantly about tech and their jobs but other than a handful who briefly worked service jobs in their teens, they have nothing to compare it to. I spent my summers as a teen moving heavy boxes/furniture, often in 100F+ hot weather, and being paid in cash (hoping to become a cabinetmaker!) barely making ends meet and I know what it's like to keep a job a job.

I left Big Tech (I had joined it as a startup and ended up staying much longer than I expected) so I understand the complaints about heavily bureaucratic jobs where most of your time is spent coordinating rather than building, and while I'm always unhappy at something or the other with my job, I know how good I have it. I do a job that I don't hate, working with generally smart people, alternating between a cushy office and my home where outside of my work I mostly just complain about minor office perks. It's fantastic.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#457

Post by Aurornis »

tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

> I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward.)

I think this level of hyperbole only feels correct when you've been trapped in the kinds of companies where everyone is at least ten steps removed from the customer. When you're sitting through meetings and pushing around abstract "work" to achieve artificial goals all day, it can seem like modern work is all made up and arbitrary.

But step outside one of these absurd corporate jobs and you'll see plenty of people doing "real" work, and doing a lot of it. It's eye opening to go from a corporate behemoth to a small company where what you do actually matters to customers. Once you see the effect your work has on something up close, it makes a lot more sense.

Every time I read an HN comment where someone is romanticizing Ted Kaczynski's writings, it feels like they're coming from a place of being just a bit too chronically online and a bit too disconnected from how the real world works outside of the internet and corporate life.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#458

Post by Aurornis »

freedomben wrote: post #388
tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…

> It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone.

It's pseudo-profound, but not really insightful at all. It's the kind of writing that seems brilliant to people going through difficult times in life or edgy teenagers who are angry at the world, but to be blunt it falls flat for people who are well-adjusted and thriving.

That's the crux of that type of writing: Ranting about the world in pseudo-profound prose is always going to feel brilliant to people who are struggling with something and want to identify with others who are also struggling, but that doesn't make it insightful or good writing.

> For anyone who doesn't know, Ted Kaczynski was the Unabomber and his solution to the problem of technology was basically to destroy the entire system by wiping it out in a way that leaves no ability for humans to resume technological progress, and violence was his way of beginning the societal destruction part. From a purely theoretical/philosophical view it makes logical sense,

Treating his writings and actions as two separate, unrelated things is really downplaying the manifesto. The fact that he took the ideas he wrote down and came to the logical conclusion that violence and destruction were the way forward should tell you something about his writings. Specifically, that they were hyperbolically incorrect.

To be honest, the way that you're identifying with his writings and thinking that even his actions make "logical sense" suggests that you may need to take a step back and reevaluate. It seems his prose got its hooks into you, but it's not actually brilliant content.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#459

Post by wslh »

tmarsden wrote: post #376

I think this all boils down to what Ted Kaczynski talked about in "Industrial Society and Its Future." Specifically "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" because "in modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one’s physical needs." I would say 99.999% of all modern work is "surrogate activity" (an activity that is directed toward an artific…

Beyond the Unabomber it is good to trace much earlier of him such as Kafka, Marx's theory of Alienation, Chaplin, etc.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#460

Post by fullshark »

_yb2s wrote: post #239

I don't understand why more adults don't have awesome hobbies... most of my childhood friends don't seem to do anything fun now as adults. I really love physical things I can do with my body as a counterbalance to working on the computer- weight lifting, woodworking, and sailing add a lot of value to my life, and have gotten me outdoors and in shape. I'm currently building a wood sailboat in my garage together with m…

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