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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#451

Post by Auracle »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #376
screye wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe another method is needed then? What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. I can give you my recent examples of previous instances that are now mo…

>> Well, so what is 'another method' ? Another method would be the IDF accepting their responsibility for failing to protect the kibbutzim on 7 October, and making damn sure that this doesn't happen again on their watch. Stop killing the Arabs and start defending the jews. And I don't mean that they should make sure there's no more Palestinians left to attack them, because that is a horror that the world must never s…

So basically let them attack Israel as much as they want, and Israel is only allowed to defend?

That's like having a sibling that's allowed to punch, prod, and poke you as much as they want. If you don't hit back your life will be hell.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#452

Post by tety »

wolverine876 wrote: post #273
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a refutation of the specific claim regarding Al Jazeera journalists doubling as Hamas agents?

Where is the burden of proof here? I generally think that militaries and governments in international relations, and especially regarding warfare, are not trustworthy; they will lie if it helps them. Israel in particular focuses on information for the Western public (which I'm sure they would agree to; they even have a word for it, and especially in this war (they are well-organized and there is plenty of recent jour…

https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1756728159158812921 This tweet has many photos of the above journalist participating and commanding a Hamas exercise, I think these are pretty incriminating.

https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1745158775567175764 This tweet contains an Islamic Jihad document listing another journalist as a member

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#453

Post by tsimionescu »

screye wrote: post #366
pests wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe another method is needed then? If you can't tell innocent people from legit targets... rethink the approach? Here is my reasoning: they hide in civilian clothes, okay let's not shoot civilians. They hide in hospitals, okay let's not bomb hospitals. They use civilian buildings, okay let's not bomb civilian buildings. They use civilians as shields... let's not shoot the shields. How is that unreasonable?

> Maybe another method is needed then? What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. I can give you my recent examples of previous instances that are now mo…

We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan and the similar levels of aid that the USA poured into post-nazi Germany, post-fascist Italy, post-imperial Japan. That turned War-torn bitter enemies into some of the staunchest US allies today.

Given Israel's position of power, they can and should be doing this. However, Israeli politicians just don't want this. Netanyahu has publicly boasted numerous times that he has personally been actively fighting to prevent a two-state solution. A one-state solution is unthinkable to even the moderates in Israel (the Supreme Court has repeatedly iterated that the government MUST protect both the Jewish and the Democratic character of Israel, so integrating the populations of Gaza and the West Bank as full Israeli citizens like this would be unconstitutional, but integrating them as second class citizens would also be unconstitutional).

So what is Israel's solution? Destroying Hamas is a pipe dream - the famine, death, and destruction they are pereptrating in Gaza today will, inevitably, create a new wave of terrorism, whether it's called "Hamas" or something else, as it always has throughout all of history.

The only real solution is massive economic investments in Gaza and the West Bank, and relying on police-like peacekeeping to prevent attacks as much as possible. This is the obvious long-term solution, anything else will worsen, not improve, Israel's security.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#457

Post by highmastdon »

g-b-r wrote: post #20
Jiro wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your theory that Hamas allows journalists free reign to report on anything in Gaza no matter how unflattering, without shooting the reporters who do so, just so that when Israel bombs the journalists will report the bombing? I doubt that.

SURE it really seems in Hamas best interest to shoot the few journalists present... And it's Hamas that's preventing international journalists to enter... They're terrorists but not stupid

Really? I think they’re terrorists AND stupid. Why else would they use funds from charity to build tunnels? Why else wouldn’t they build a local economy instead of investing in the daily rain of rockets on their neighbours? Why else would they launch a horrific attack against civilians at a “love and peace” festival next to the Gaza Strip in a country that’s a military powerhouse?

Other than complete delusion, it’s because they’re stupid… OR they don’t care about the well-being of their citizens and value the death of their opponents more than the live of their own

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#458

Post by moogly »

nsguy wrote: post #61
hmcq6 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfounded. I'm still waiting on a single shred of evidence to drop about the AP building from 2-3 years ago https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israe... > Which unfortunately means prohibitions on bombing hospitals, schools and places of worship are now obsolete. Even if Hamas was fighting from hospitals and schools that is not how this works. Israel would be required to give those schools…

Israel has ordered hospitals to evacuate, e.g.: https://healthpolicy-watch.news/who-calls-for-israel-to-resc... I think you're generally wrong on the "they have not been doing" comment. Israel has been giving warnings, and those warnings were intentionally being ignored to maximize the damage to Israel's reputation. But if you have some comprehensive data here I'd be interested in seeing it. From my observation the p…

> Israel did demand that the entirety of Northern Gaza be evacuated from civilians (including those "camps" you mention, more below, and including all those hospitals)

Evacuated to where, exactly?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#459

Post by NalNezumi »

falcor84 wrote: post #276
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any other examples from history where the goal of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to maximize the destruction of their own side? Every false flag operation designed to rally support for a conflict.

I'm not quite clear on what you're implying here, but in any case I would prefer to find an example of a prolonged war rather than an isolated false flag operation.

Mukden incident 1931. False flag operation that lead to the invasion of Manchuria by Japan.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#460

Post by bawolff »

tsimionescu wrote: post #443
bawolff wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially that implies Israel will get shot at and not be allowed to shoot back. I suspect most Israelis would find that unreasonable. Israeli civilians don't like being killed anymore than Palestinian civilians do. The thing that usually prevents war is that both sides lose in the end. If only one side is allowed to shoot, why would the side being allowed to shoot ever stop? They would be getting all the benefits…

When the IRA was periodically attacking UK institutions and killing civilians, did the UK feel entitled to level Belfast and say that the IRA is to blame? This war in Palestine is much closer to a civil war than to any country-to-country combat, especially since Palestine is simply not an independent country. Since Israel is in control of the Gaza strip for 50+ years (explicit military control till the 2005, still in…

The british controlled the police in northern ireland, Israel does not control the police or other government functions insude Gaza. (As an aside it should be noted that that conflict is orders of magnitude less violent. If the IRA did what Hamas did, i suspect belfast would be leveled) At most israel control their border with gaza (but not egypt's border with gaza) the sea access and air access. A blockade no doubt, but not donestic government functions.

Whether or not gaza is independent is complicated, since they have some features of independence but not others and don't quite squarely fit in either camp. Nonetheless if your suggestion is that israel should have called in whatever their equivalent of a police swat team is - that's impossible because hamas controlled all domestic government functions in gaza. You can't use domestic police techniques on land where you only control the border but not the land itself.

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