Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#451

Post by shiroiuma » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:29 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #439

shiroiuma wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, as an American expat, I find American tipping culture distasteful in the extreme, as well as Americans' countless justifications for it (and also their justifications for the horrible bathrooms). America is also the only place I've eaten where the server continually interrupts my conversation just to ask "how's that tasting for you?". Everywhere else, servers know not to interrupt people unless they have a good r…

Thing I love about tipping is I know the money is going to workers not the owner. Probably the difference between me and you is I like and respect service workers. So I like tipping them.

Do you tip your cashier at the supermarket too? How about the guy who cooked your food in the kitchen in the back? What about the person who cleaned the toilets in the bathroom; do you track them down too and give them a tip?

In better-run countries, servers are actually paid a normal wage and we don't act haughty and make ourselves feel superior to others just because we can throw money at service workers like they're some kind of charity case.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#452

Post by zzo38computer » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:35 AM UTC

zzo38computer wrote: post #74

It would be a good idea to make in other places too, so that the advertising of prices will not be deceptive, so that you will know what they are. If someone charges you money they did not say (due to the service that was agreed on), it is false advertising and they should not do that.

However, there might need to be nuanced, such as if there are both mandatory and non-mandatory fees in a service. It will need to be managed in a satisfactory way which does not hide any fees but ensures which fees are not mandatory, must somehow be specified so that you can know what fees to expect. Furthermore, if fees are not mandatory then they must tell you the fee before you decide to purchase that optional feature. (For example, in a hotel there might be a fee for parking that only applies if you use the parking; they should mention that so that you can add it up yourself before you ever go there, and you will know exactly how much money you need.)

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#453

Post by mindslight » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 3:10 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #431

mindslight wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but while we're at it, let's also break out things like wholesale costs, manufacturing marginal unit cost, per-unit profits, etc. Shed some light on what every layer is getting rather than being distracted by focusing on only a single one. And of course none of this is incompatible with still printing one big-print all-inclusive price.

People vote on taxes.

That's actually a reason for why it's less useful to show the taxes at the point of sale, as it means people either voted on it or they don't care.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#454

Post by olliej » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:27 AM UTC

snovv_crash wrote: post #417

heimidal wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the only practical alternative I can imagine would mean to never show a price... yes, the current state of things is more beneficial to the consumer. Again, seeing an pre-tax MSRP price in an ad is better than not having any MSRP in an ad at all. If you have a practical alternative that could somehow allow for advertising with prices that include tax, I'd love to hear it. (Just to make sure we're on the same pa…

Localized advertising is the obvious answer.

there are in the region of 100 different in the SF Bay Area alone. I drive through at least 10 in my daily commute.

Localized advertising as you put it, with included tax info, cannot work for: TV, radio, billboards, internet advertising, and is not useful to consumers for seat advertising, bus stops, etc.

Circulars only work because they can be printed in large numbers and delivered cheaply because they are delivered to every house in a region. Except delivery regions are by zip code, not by city or municipality - my zip code has three cities in it. As I have said elsewhere I am around 10 houses from a different city, so postal delivery for circulars that includes the prices is out unless you include multiple prices, but that's still kind of busted because if I get a circular I might stop at the store in a different city along my commute.

So now if I see a "full price" from X different ads, which "full price" is correct for where I would be shopping? Hence what matters in this environment is that all advertisers are providing a complete price where the only difference is the tax.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#455

Post by refurb » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 6:03 AM UTC

crote wrote: post #449

refurb wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is the $0.02 doesn't matter.

It definitely does matter when you only have $8.

Who only has $8? Who shops down to the penny?

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#456

Post by PeterStuer » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 6:22 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #147

PeterStuer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay this much for this good ot service, and not an anachronistic 'tip' incantation for which you have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules, or you have to wip out your phone to google tax ra…

> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine. Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retail…

I did word that travelling part poorly and you are right to call that out.

Thing is, leaving aside foreigners, there seems to be such an intrinsic contradiction between the 'everyone knows' and the 'it is so complex we can't even put it on the store shelf price label'.

Over here (Europe) for better or worse near 100% store checkouts are digital, regardless of wether you pay with credit or debit card. We get the correct price we will pay displayed on store shelves. We get a breakout of tax on the PoS ticket. In most places we also get a breakout of the price and the promo on the ticket (as in e.g. buy 2 get one free promos).

Yes. I am biased by experience, but I fail to see how not knowing how much you will pay for someting when and where you make the decision to buy it, that is when you take it of the shelf and put it in your cart, can be an advantage you would argue for.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#457

Post by graftak » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 6:45 AM UTC

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #425

ramblenode wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If consumers valued it, tax-inclusive pricing might be worth the effort. But in America, we don't. That's not true. I would guess the vast majority of consumers would at least slightly prefer that the tax be included in the display price. The problem is those consumers aren't an organized interest group, whereas retailers are. It's not a "cultural preference"--it's just the inability of the political system to addr…

I sincerely doubt that. I prefer to know how much of the price is from taxes because of transparency, as I mentioned in another comment on this thread. Furthermore, literally everywhere I’ve lived in America, I had 3+ local sales tax rates within my typical shopping range and it’s nice to know which areas have lower rates so I can preferentially make larger shopping trips there.

Sales tax is always printed on the receipt so it’s glanceable, often it is itemised too as product types might fall into varying tax brackets.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#458

Post by graftak » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 6:50 AM UTC

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #424

fransje26 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. > cultural distrust of taxation and government > a decreasing tendency to use cash > higher income per capita Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper. > Also, most retailers here use paper labels Great! Makes it even easier to printout the act…

I don’t want taxes hidden inside the price of an item. It’s much better for consumers (and voters) to be aware of how much of each purchase goes to taxes.

It’s on the receipt. And everyone where I live knows what the sales tax percentages are (there are two brackets).

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#459

Post by graftak » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 6:54 AM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #412

fransje26 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. > cultural distrust of taxation and government > a decreasing tendency to use cash > higher income per capita Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper. > Also, most retailers here use paper labels Great! Makes it even easier to printout the act…

You can't run a national "$5 footlong" or "dollar menu" national ad campaign if some states charge taxes on prepared food and some don't, and of those states that charge taxes, some require tax inclusive pricing and some don't. Tax-inclusive pricing isn't something that can be solved with a state law.

Even if you have a big asterix there for that special tax excluded from the price occasion it will already make lives a lot easier. Such a weird hill to die on.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#460

Post by graftak » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 6:55 AM UTC

ramblenode wrote: post #354

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine. Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retail…

I've never met an American who prefered the system of not showing the full price on the shelf. The system exists entirely to obfuscate prices and confuse less price-conscious consumers. It is hardly culture.

It is culture alright, the US famed capitalist rule the world culture.