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France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

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Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#451
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it expensive to compromise a phone? 2-2.5+ million USD depending for a full chain with persistence (lower end of range is for iOS higher end is for Android). That is probably the lower end of the rough cost to buy that capability which you can use as many times as you want. https://zerodium.com/images/zerodium_prices_mobiles.png > Is it sensitive to compromise a phone, now that there is a national law allowing i…

So, on the order of a dollar per person, assuming a town/municipality of a couple million people? Is that a lot? In the US the major cities have police budgets of between $200 million and $5 billion

> In the US the major cities have police budgets of between $200 million and $5 billion

Yeah and most didn’t have this capability generally considering both the costs and the little amount of use you'd have for it.

You'd expect something more federal like the NSA, CIA or the FBI to have this kind of capability which is why its kinda a big deal when normal cops get it.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linguistically dozens of cases is vague less then 200 and definitively less then 1000, because then it would be hundreds of cases. Through there is no legal requirement for the statement to be true in any form or way. Even if they would have explicitly said less then 50 cases, it's not a constraint in the law, so it's meaningless. Through see my other comment for why even if that statement is fully true in a linguist…

>"[Though] there is no legal requirement for the statement to be true [...]" This is a major flaw in Western democracies. A person acting for the government, making a statement that the public would see as official, should be bound by law to tell the truth; or at least not lie nor commit deception. People like UK ex-PM Johnson are effectively committing treasonous fraud, by lying to the public, and getting off scot-f…

...Enforcement would require a DA to levy criminal charges against the person in question...

Do you see the problem here?

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#453
post #180

United States, couple years ago my friend in his mid-thirties was feeling depressed after his mom died. Came over to hang out, and wasn’t responding to his sisters calls. His sister called in a welfare check on him and suddenly I have three cops knocking at my front door. They ask for him by name, say he isn’t in trouble. I go get him; he asks “how did you know where I was?” and the cops say “we pinged your phone”. W…

That is plainly allowed under federal law. Pursuant to 5 U.S.C § 2703(c), a provider “may divulge a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service (not including the contents of communications covered by subsection (a)(1) or (a)(2)”…“to a governmental entity, if the provider, in good faith, believes that an emergency involving danger of death or serious physical injury to any pe…

No one is arguing that it's illegal, OP only said its 'spooky', therefore bad. Sometimes bad things are plainly allowed by federal law.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#454
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cell phone companies only know which tower you are currently connected to. So it's pretty inaccurate. The only thing that is "house accurate" is the GPS on your phone. That means they need access to your phone to get that info. Remark that GPS doesn't need to be turned on. Google mapped all Wifi's and so can locate you without GPS.

Modern phones know where you are with centimeter-level precision. Beam Steering obviously requires the cell to know where to steer the beam: https://www.fastcompany.com/90314058/5g-means-youll-have-to-...

No it doesn't. Beam steering is adaptive and will work with signals getting reflected, for example. It's just noting where the return signal from the phone comes on 8 antennas and then narrowing the signal to the phone while increasing bandwidth. It does not use location (because it uses wave interference the "location" these beams is an interference pattern, not a position in cm)

Phone triangulation works by getting signal strength on 3 or more towers, and getting location from that. That's how it works on WiFi as well. Access points see the clients, and each other, and if you have enough data points, you don't even have to configure the locations of the access points. Of course, the location you get back is relative to the access points and the distance between them, so systems provide a quick way to convert to distances based on one or two measurements.

So please don't think 3G is going to protect you from triangulation. It isn't. Now they're decommissioned but even hospital pagers can be triangulated (some of them aren't even 1G, though anything remotely recent is just a cell phone in disguise)

Because of the "emergency services" mandate from governments it works without the sim being registered. Phones MUST be able to immediately call emergency services so sim or no sim, they are registered on the cell phone network using the number of the cellular modem hardware in the phone, the IMEI number. Phones without a SIM or eSIM can be triangulated. Phones that have never had a sim can be triangulated. Phones that had a sim, but now don't (you keep your phone on but have taken the sim out), can be triangulated based on the phone number of the sim (by looking up the IMEI that last used that SIM, then triangulating the IMEI). These systems can track mobile phones as they move, even in places where the signal is so weak phone service doesn't work (though of course, this doesn't exactly help with accuracy)

Of course whether all this works depends on the competence of the large telcos and the police in a specific country. What I said above is what's possible, not what is actually done. What another poster said is true: telcos have internet portals, accessible to the police (and ...) where you enter some information and get location back. This is generally demanded by governments, as the telco is not allowed to know WHO gets tracked by the police in most countries. Yes, in the US telcos are allowed to know, and they can even legally refuse to track someone, but in most of the EU this is not true.

Whether airplane mode prevents your location from being monitored depends on the phone.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#455
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a stupid message first that the person above you replied to accurately, I changed my stupid message to be less stupid while still reflecting my opinion on the matter.

Thank you for saying this so I don’t look insane, ahaha

Ah, sorry. Didn't realize it was edited.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#456

what tech does this even use? Do they mean using Pegasus or similar malware that the govt has to first get onto the suspect's devices, or is this via Google/Apple or the device manufacturers that makes 'remotely and secretly activating a microphone' even possible?

Looks like any app can be installed silently behind your back with GTalkService that is running on your Android phone https://github.com/CellularPrivacy/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Dete... https://jon.oberheide.org/blog/2010/06/28/a-peek-inside-the-... --------------------- Google Play Services spyware discussion https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/guide-insanely-better-bat... https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-disable-s…

Replying so I can read all of these later.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#457
post #326
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this comment because I always assume a majority of people here are Americans, but I'm not, and maybe it's not true anymore.

I'd be willing to bet that less than half of this site's users are American. There is a huge software engineering community in Europe, for example, and there are more Europeans than Americans, let alone the large populations of Asia, Australia, New Zealand...

Psssssh, everyone knows that New Zealand doesn't exist, it's why it's not on any maps!

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#458
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, on the order of a dollar per person, assuming a town/municipality of a couple million people? Is that a lot? In the US the major cities have police budgets of between $200 million and $5 billion

> In the US the major cities have police budgets of between $200 million and $5 billion Yeah and most didn’t have this capability generally considering both the costs and the little amount of use you'd have for it. You'd expect something more federal like the NSA, CIA or the FBI to have this kind of capability which is why its kinda a big deal when normal cops get it.

>Yeah and most didn’t have this capability generally considering both the costs and the little amount of use you'd have for it.

I would say most didn't have this capability because it's illegal. In France it is now legal

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cops say “we pinged your phone”. What that entails exactly I have no clue. The cell phone infrastructure knows where your phone is. It has to in order for it to operate. The police routinely ask cell phone companies for locations of cell phones. Many (most?) not only won't require a warrant, but provide an official portal the police can use to conduct their queries without having to get a phone company employee…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cell phone companies only know which tower you are currently connected to. So it's pretty inaccurate. The only thing that is "house accurate" is the GPS on your phone. That means they need access to your phone to get that info. Remark that GPS doesn't need to be turned on. Google mapped all Wifi's and so can locate you without GPS.

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but cell phone companies only know which tower you are currently connected to. So it's pretty inaccurate. The only thing that is "house accurate" is the GPS on your phone.

That was the case before 5G. They'd only have your location to within a mile or so. 5G gives them your location to within feet. It's because they need to so many more towers.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cops say “we pinged your phone”. What that entails exactly I have no clue. The cell phone infrastructure knows where your phone is. It has to in order for it to operate. The police routinely ask cell phone companies for locations of cell phones. Many (most?) not only won't require a warrant, but provide an official portal the police can use to conduct their queries without having to get a phone company employee…

The question is how accurate is cell tower triangulation?

In the past, ~1 mile. One of the complaints people had about 5G was that it could make it much more accurate. Accurate enough to find a house or someone's location with it. It works because 5G needs towers all over the place to function.
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