Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#451

Post by Xylakant » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #437

Xylakant wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have plenty of cash because I’m living in a place where I don’t need a car.

It certainly helps! But in California (my home) at least neighbourhoods that are walkable and nice often have very expensive homes. We liked South Park, San Diego, but there were almost no homes under $1 million for instance.

Changing that is the entire goal of the "anti-car" crowd, right? They want city-planers to build neighborhoods that are walkable, accessible by public transport and don't require owning a car. And they want them everywhere, for everyone.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#452

Post by antisthenes » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #343

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

Must be nice to live in a country where public transport exists and is reasonably functional to get you places without having to wait 25-30 minutes at every leg of your journey.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#453

Post by Gordonjcp » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

> Okay, so what about used cars? The average used car price in the U.S. is now over $28K (KBB). That's more than I've ever paid for any new car I've ever bought!

That's more than I've spent on buying, taxing, insuring, MOTing, and repairing every car I have owned since I passed my driving test nearly 30 years ago.

We live in an age of ubiquitous information. It has never been easier to learn how to repair things. Why would you pay more than most new cars cost, when you could pick up some shiter for a few hundred, run it until it breaks, and then figure out how to repair it from a couple of youtube videos?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#454

Post by rr808 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #351

rr808 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, a brand new Toyota Corolla Hybrid is $24k including fees.

In a time where half of the US can't afford a $1000 emergency...

Yeah, half the country wont be buying new cars. Buying used is normal.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#455

Post by kensai » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

david-gpu wrote: post #144

kensai wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you imply? That (inner) cities will be only for your carless people? Good for you that you tick the boxes and still not use the car. I know of people that cannot manage this. The inner cities are also places were the suburbs people come to work and play. So space in underground parkings or other accomodations is expected. Imagine if the sububs people decided to say to you (inner) city people that you are n…

Inner city areas should be designed primarily for the people living there, not for the convenience of suburbanites passing by. Regarding green spaces, they easily coexist in dense walkable neighborhoods.

Thankfully you are not to decide this. Inner city areas contain many offices and amenities that are critical for the whole population, regardless where they live.

I hear such outrageous arguments all the time by inner city dwellers. Just because they own or rent a microscopic appartment in a condo, they think they own the city and all must abide to their lifestyle.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#456

Post by rexpress » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #312

rexpress wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country...On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dut…

Generalising from the centre of a city to the whole country is a distortion. Last time i was in the Netherlands, i arrived in Amsterdam, then went out to the countryside, somewhere near Dedemsvaart. I looked at doing the trip by public transport, but it would have taken forever. Instead, we rented a car and drove there, along wide, fast, busy roads. The Netherlands is indeed a heavily motorised country.

Dutch cycling infrastructure is close to ubiquitous, extending practically the length and breadth of the country. The idea that bikes are used only in city centres is another distortion. But of course the bike tends to be used for shorter, local trips.

Your (roughly 130 km) journey would have been less fast had those people making their shorter distance journeys by bike got into their cars instead.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#457

Post by iso1631 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

rpastuszak wrote: post #367

taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

I think that outside of the US the reason is that _in most cases_ you just don’t need cars. They’re more of a hassle and take up a lot of space.

That's not at all true in the industrialized world. Gibraltar is maybe one place you might not need a car, it's a tiny country with a bus reaching everywhere. Yet there are 1444 cars per 1000 people.

If you look at cars/1000 people though the US is top with 890 sure, but New Zealand, Canada, Finland, Austrailia, Poland, Italy are all above 750.

France, Germany, UK, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Japan are all above 600.

Switzerland especially is often cited as a great example of how a well run public transport system works, yet 82% of people have a car

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#458

Post by davidthewatson » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:42 PM UTC

I'm happy to see these statistics going in the right direction. There's a lot to learn for old car guys like me.

Traffic was a problem on roads long before the internet. It's not the car. It's how we've attempted to scale cars via highways and stroads at the expense of everything around us.

I don't hate cars. They're not the problem.

The problem with enjoying cars as a mode of commuting is that cars don't scale when the occupant-to-car ratio is 1:1, since the car is easily several times the size of one occupant. Cars could scale if the number of occupants was on average, greater than 1:1, as it is on planes, trains, and busses.

One way to make cars scale like larger vehicles is to reduce their size toward a bicycle or motorcycle. This is obvious from observing denser parts of the world.

The other way is HOV lanes. That hasn't worked well around here where I've frequently been the only one on the HOV in the middle of stop-and-go, multi-lane, rush-hour traffic for decades.

The driver just made the decision not to carry more occupants under the guise of personal freedom. That's an error for which we all bear the burden.

The hyperfocus on productivity, punctuality, and space-time in general is the problem with modern commute culture, ignoring the evolving dialectic on remote work. We did not create this, but we've certainly accepted it, - the triumph of commute-time over commune-time.

We may not all be pickled in the same diminishing-returns-on-more-cars culture, but we can transition to an increasing-returns-on-less-cars culture and simply learn to transit the earth more creatively, meaningfully, and multi-modally.

Commuting is a choice that should be optimized for the mutual benefit of self and society.

I, for one, really enjoy being able to read on a bus or a train (leave the driving to them) - ignoring self-driving because I don't trust "them" any further than I can throw my near-autonomous medical device, because there isn't any greater sacrifice in my mind than the feeling of agency that arises from having my hands on the wheel and the gearshift, whether bicycle, motorcycle, or car.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#459

Post by foobarian » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:42 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #346

lotsofpulp wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of very high quality vehicles available for purchase at less than $47k for new and $28k for used. The average sale price is skewed by people choosing luxury purchases by buying larger (and fancier) than necessary vehicles. Also can be skewed by vehicles lasting longer in the first place, meaning poorer people do not need to buy cars as often, but richer people can choose to buy cars more often.

That helps a little, but still makes care ownership prohibitively expensive for young people. You're still looking at $350 per month for a 5 year old or newer vehicle, i.e. one that's reliable and has lower maintenance (and aggravation) costs. That still leaves you paying a little over $600 per month. From that point as you start lowering your finance costs you're going to increase your maintenance and aggravation co…

To be fair no young people I ever knew bought new cars unless they were rich (i.e. top-paying job), or their family paid for it. We got crappy worn out Nissan Sentras for $2k.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#460

Post by paulcole » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

fundad wrote: post #102

paulcole wrote: post #43

I grew up in a very rural part of northern Florida. When I was 16 my parents said I’d have to learn how to drive so I could get to the job that I’d use to pay for a car. I thought that was dumb and just decided to get by with less money and no car. Throughout high school, I’d walk to the general store a mile away and that was about all I did other than go fishing (my favorite thing to do at the time). For a bit of mo…

You grew up someplace serviced by bus that got you to school, work and the general store. That’s harder to come by these days.

Oh no, sorry I meant that the college town I went to had a bus. No non-school bus where I grew up.

Growing up it was 1 mile to the general store or 35 miles to Walmart. I went there with my parents or I didn't go there at all. My job tying flies was by mail. I worked at home and mailed them to the shop. It paid about minimum wage but kept me in fishing tackle and I got better at tying flies. Plus I could listen to the radio while I worked. And we had a schoolbus to get to/from school which I don't think is that rare.