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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#451

Post by ArnoVW »

anon223345 wrote: post #283
ArnoVW wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of counterculture is that it 'counters'. I.e. it inherently searches to change or influence the dominant culture. Your examples do show that we are (thankfully) not a monoculture. But they place themselves outside of our culture, instead trying to influence. A good example of counter culture is BLM, Extinction Rebellion or Occupy Wallstreet. Only thing: those are movements, not cultures. And they are…

BLM is literally on flags, in schools, it’s not counter culture The AP even has it on tests for college credit

Note that by that measure, hippies were not counterculture.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#452

Post by dragonwriter »

undersuit wrote: post #362
Dig1t wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are scared to say this, because they quickly get labeled a Christofascist or alt-right something or other, but it's true. Trads are definitely the counter culture now. Tim Dillon made a joke recently, something along the lines of "The most radical non-conformist thing you can do now is wear rosary beads". I thought it was kind of funny, but also because it's true.

I grew up with a number of rosaries. I would have to bring them into my Catholic grade school and then we'd walk to the church on campus and spend the next hour reciting rote verses and trying to keep track of where I was on the rosary. Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Rosaries are almost sacred.

> Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me.

Wearing a rosary around the neck is common and accepted in some Catholic cultures and frowned upon in others. There is no general Catholic religious objection to it, it is just a matter of local cultural practice. (Publicly flaunting it while engaging in scandalous behavior is more generally frowned upon, of course, as heaping hypocrisy on top of the already-bad behavior.)

Wearing a 15-decade rosary on the hip, in the same place a soldier would wear a sword, is traditional for the Dominican order.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#453

Post by [deleted] »

alldayeveryday wrote: post #374
standardUser wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture of the 60s was not hippies, they were the counterculture by any possible definition.

I guess I just have the view that if I am turning on the radio, the TV, watching a movie, a tv show, celebrity voices, the state department, etc - and I am seeing the counterculture, then I am actually just seeing the culture.

[deleted]

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#454

Post by noobermin »

bmj wrote: post #15
magic_hamster wrote: post #10

I think there never was stronger counterculture than today - but the platforms for this changed. A few decades ago an avant-garde film or student project could make ripples in the film industry and gain a cult following. However, I think that anyone under 20 (possibly under 30) sees cinema as far less important than the previous generation. YouTube (and TikTok) stars became bigger than movie stars, and more young peo…

I think there never was stronger counterculture than today I disagree. Can you expand on your claim? YouTube and TikTok are not countercultural, even if some users are using those platforms for genuine countercultural creative acts. By definition, a social media "influencer" with millions of followers is not countercultural.

The hippies weren't tiny and they were the quintessential counter culture. You can have millions of followers and the average cat on the street wouldn't know who you are.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#455

Post by throwaway894345 »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #245
throwaway894345 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s certainly not what I’m looking for, but BLM was obviously about purported racial inequality with respect to police killings or else Daniel Shaver, Tony Timpa, Justine Damond, etc would be among the Names that we’re told to Say.

So it's not monolithic, I've definitely been at "BLM"-y protests against police violence where non-Black victims were mentioned. As far as actual policy changes we might want to advocate for or support, does it make any difference? I guess it would mean that "diversity training" for cops is not the way to go -- I agree and I think most BLM organizers would too (the ones I know anyway do). Instead ways that increase p…

> So it's not monolithic, I've definitely been at "BLM"-y protests against police violence where non-Black victims were mentioned.

Yes, I'm generalizing. It's not possible to make meaningful statements about a millions-strong movement that apply universally, so I'm generalizing just like we generalize about "liberals", "conservatives", "progressives", "Trump supporters", etc. And I stand by my generalization--any mention of white victims of police violence was an aberration, an outlier.

> I think the level of violence and aggression that police enact on certain communities would probably not be tolerated if it affected people with more political power -- they target people with less political power, which has racial components in the USA is why race matters, but is not exclusively "black and white", sure.

I mean, I think virtually everyone agrees that police killings are classist. Of course, BLM wouldn't have been controversial if the message was merely "police target poor people (who are disproportionately black)". Something like 90% of Americans in 2020 (per Gallup or Pew--I forget which--but think about how big this number is particularly in light of the polarization of American politics) agreed that police brutality was a problem and police reform was needed--this was extremely uncontroversial. But the claim wasn't "classism", it was "racism"--police target ("hunt" was even commonly invoked) black Americans because of their race.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#456

Post by zamfi »

_gabe_ wrote: post #431
zamfi wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture , though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means…

I live in the rural south and went to a private Christian university. They painted the statue of the school mascot a rainbow on pride month. My biblical ethics classes taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The students couldn't care less about the traditional aspects of Christianity. My friends at other Christian private universities had similar experiences. You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to exp…

> You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere.

You don’t, which is why I said:

> or even different parts of the same city

But while it is present almost everywhere, it is not pervasive everywhere. Surely at your private Christian university there are many who hold traditional views — just as there are some at Berkeley, near me — and I’d be pretty surprised to learn that the kids painting your school’s mascot represent a majority perspective there.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#457

Post by TbobbyZ »

neonnoodle wrote: post #71

The medium is the message dudes. At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. Whatever the true counterculture will be, it won’t be subject to the Internet and its all-seeing eye. It won’t be made out of memes and flame wars. No matter what the political bent, we’re all very much a captive audience online. “Master’s house/master’s tools” and all that.

I agree. It’s a privilege to be able to make a living without the internet.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#458

Post by colpabar »

standardUser wrote: post #376
goodSteveramos wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

If you are unsure of what he meant, try and explicitly advocate for "majority white, straight, Christian(ish)" people in the same way every other group gets to do in america and see how it goes. And if your knee jerk reaction is to say "well only a racist white nationalist would do that", you have proved my point, and you are using the same fallacious reasoning that leads to people thinking that all gay rights advocates are pedophiles or all criminal justice reform advocates are thugs.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#459

Post by refuse »

I can't think of a counter culture that wasn't somehow absorbed by the economy and sold back to the masses. It all ends up getting commodified which makes it part of "culture" without the "counter".

I've watched the trend accelerate in my life and I wonder if we're reaching some sort of point (because of social media?) where there is very nearly no culture (counter or otherwise) unless it is commodified. Everything has been reproduced and divorced from it's meaning so we have this neutered insipid idea of culture that inspires nothing.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#460

Post by factsarelolz »

undersuit wrote: post #341
phkahler wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> LGBTQ is a minority Nope. The number of letters keeps increasing as more people are brought in. In schools these days it's trendy to be anything but straight.

LGBTQ isn't a choice, stop peddling this falsehood.

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