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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#451

Post by m_mueller »

abigail95 wrote: post #393
m_mueller wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also just not realistic. If everyone was that defensive (5+ seconds distance) on such a busy road it would severely lower its capacity, leading to constant traffic jams. Leaving that gap will just mean others taking it.

In my opinion the optimal following distance for traffic flow is probably slightly higher than what people are doing. There might be a "laffer curve" where increasing the follow distance of other cars and limiting overcorrections would increase capacity, rather than decrease it, at the current level. If we're getting regular "phantom jams", we're probably following too closely.

there definitely is such a curve. I just can't imagine its optimum is at 5+ seconds between cars, at least at the highway speeds we drive in dense/often congested areas (~60mph / 100kph where I live). Intuitively I'd put it around 3 seconds.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#452

Post by beeforpork »

A good analysis. The stated vigilance problem is well known, actually, but it is ignored, supposedly in the hope that humankind is on a progressive path to fully autonomous self-driving, and that we need this phase of experimentation to advance technology.

Completely autonomous self-driving cars (without any steering wheel, so even incapacitated or clueless people may 'drive' (like drunk or in labour or children)) indeed seem like a good solution. (Except we need less individual traffic for env reasons.) Unfortunately, the problem is very hard, technologically, and the current interim solutions will stay for a while.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#453

Post by dkrich »

samwillis wrote: post #444
fullsend wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion 90% of the reason we don’t have more accidents is because people are so predictable. Watch dangerous drivers weave through traffic - it’s only possible because everyone follows spoken and unspoken rules. Randomly stopping is not some “you need to be prepared, it’s your fault” moment.

The other day I was driving behind a car on a country road, he did an emergency stop to avoid a rabbit in the road. I avoided hitting him, I stopped about 2m from him because I was careful to leave enough space. If I had hit him I'm sure the insurance companies would have placed blame on me and it would have been my insurance that paid out. But ultimately it would have been his "fault" for doing something utterly unp…

This reasoning makes very little sense to me. Why drive assuming that it will be a rabbit most of the time and not a child or a deer or whatever you deem worthy of stopping for?

If the possibility exists that a driver in front of you may stop suddenly why not always leave a minimum amount of space for a safe stop considering there is virtually no downside to doing so?

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#454

Post by numpad0 »

misnome wrote: post #403
AmericanChopper wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost impossible to rear-end another car without being at least partially at fault. The lane change from the Tesla was obviously dangerous, but the first car to collide with it had sufficient warning and time to react. You can see that they did react, but they obviously didn’t expect the Tesla to come to a full stop, which is why the first collision took place. I believe the legal term for this is contributory…

I overtake you, the instant my car is 1m in front of yours I switch into your lane and hard break. Who is at fault for you crashing into the back of me?

You, UNLESS THERE ARE CLEAR EVIDENCES THAT PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE, like there are in this case and there will be in such cases(like skid marks).

The fact that the trailing driver is USUALLY found at fault it is just philosophical razors applied to situations without enough evidences. Generalizing that into "trailing drivers are always at fault" is disingenuous, partisan and malicious.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#455

Post by progman32 »

sokoloff wrote: post #79
denimnerd42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do love the ACC on my car. One of the worst parts of road trips is following cars you don't want to or can't pass. The ACC totally solves it. I don't see how you were really able to use cruise to follow another car at all before? Even 1mph too slow is not great and if the car in front isn't using any cruise control at all it could be 5mph too slow and then 5mph too fast.

I just did a 1500+ mile road trip over the holidays. During the drive, I was trying to figure out why old-tech (2005) cruise control worked so well. Even a 1 mph differential in speed is a car length change in following distance every 10 seconds. A 1/2 mph difference is 3 car lengths of change every minute. That seems like enough that would be annoying, but it obviously wasn’t when two cars are following each other b…

I've puzzled over this as well. Surely, the other car's cruise control isn't calibrated to the same 1mph increments as mine, yet it somehow works out. I wonder if it's an interaction with the leading driver. Perhaps they consciously or subconsciously keep distance from the car behind?

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#456

Post by [deleted] »

trabant00 wrote: post #402
cm2187 wrote: post #385

From what I can tell, the car behind the tesla didn't crash into the tesla but stopped before. And so did the car behind that one. It is the cars after that that crashed into each others. While automatic cars doing random things is certainly problematic, clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances and not able to stop when there is a traffic jam ahead.

> clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances The cause of the crash is the Tesla. You are not allowed to stop on bridges, in tunnels and several other places. The crashes starting with the Nth car and not the 1st is normal. Reaction time of the first car eats into the reaction of the second and so on until there's no more time to stop. Understand that…

[deleted]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#457

Post by bearmode »

iainmerrick wrote: post #413
misnome wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck maintaining a safe distance on a busy highway when every time you slow to make a space, somebody moves into the space from a different lane.

Traffic jams happen. Do you really expect drivers to just ram into the back of them?

Traffic jams usually have some sort of sign, a slowing of traffic, a stream of brake lights ahead.

It's a different situation when someone is slamming on their brakes from highway speed with nothing ahead of them.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#458

Post by bearmode »

progman32 wrote: post #430
misnome wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck maintaining a safe distance on a busy highway when every time you slow to make a space, somebody moves into the space from a different lane.

Why not let them take the space?

Because then you have to slow down to keep a safe following distance again. Then it happens again, and again, and again.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#459

Post by raphman »

Loic wrote: post #318
sokoloff wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I brake check someone on the highway, causing an accident, and it’s discovered that that’s what happened, I’d be pretty shocked* if the trailing driver was found responsible. That video looks like a combined lane change and brake check on the part of the Tesla. * and disappointed

In Germany you would be covered because line change and break, without a reason, is a deliberate dangerous action. This means that the one doing it is responsible of the following crash. For the multiple cars crash, if not clear cut, without video recording, all the insurances pool themselves together and consider the drivers as not responsible. Nobody cannot tell if you stopped, got hit in the back and then the fron…

Huh? In my (German) experience, responsibility for the crash (and thus for the sentence/fine/payout to each driver) is rarely assigned to a single driver in such a case. Instead, it is distributed among participants with e.g. the Tesla driver being 80% at fault for the second driver's damages and the others ramming the second car for 20% (or something like this).

I admittedly find it a little bit confusing how many people here assign complete blame to exactly one participant.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#460

Post by quacksilver »

throw827474737 wrote: post #362
int_19h wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not, but that wasn't the hypothetical posited by OP. In the actual case with Tesla, the driver of the car that was in front of the pile-up was not at fault IMO. But there were a bunch more cars behind, and at least some of those slammed into each other because they didn't maintain proper distance, according to the police.

Are we looking at the same video? The turn signal is on long before, the lane change of the car starts long before.. you don't see any reaction of the following driver even when the Tesla's tires finally cross the line, which is the latest point where the following driver must adapt apeed and distance, but nothing happens?

I am not sure about the US, but in most countries I have driven in, putting a turn signal on is asking for permission to enter another lane, and there is no 'right' to go into the other lane or expect drivers currently there to slow down for you.

If there is an obstruction ahead, the safest scenario is to change to an empty lane ('empty' including safety distance) or brake in your lane to avoid hitting it. If you have some other problem you should probably brake slowly and change lanes to the outer edge of the road whenever there are safe gaps.

I would probably be off the gas or braking based on movement of the car in the other lane as part of driving defensively, though i don't think there is any 'obligation' for me to do so.

The behavior of the Tesla would also strike me as rather odd (assuming a right hand drive country unless there is a off-ramp coming up on the left) as it appears to be pulling over to the wrong side of the road.

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