>“Some of the most popular places to travel are off the beaten path” I think this would imply the path is very well beaten.
No one goes there anymore because it's too crowded.
Too true Yogi.
Emergency SOS via satellite
451–460 of 479 posts
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#452Earlier quoted context omitted.
SAR people may largely be volunteers, but helicopters have fairly expensive operational costs. In time-sensitive situations, it is better to have two way communications (because it keeps SAR as inexpensive as possible). See my sister comment for my wife's experience.
I was wondering who foots the bill for the equipment
In our case, our org (Norwegian Red Cross) buy the equipment using sponsor money and the like. Then we get reimbursed by the government for using them in SAR operations.
It works well enough for us to have maybe 4 snowmobiles, 2 6-wheel ATV's, a 4 person rope rescue kit, 10 TETRA phones and a car in addition to various medical equipment.
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
The next couple years will give us more concrete numbers, but based on my personal experience, I doubt this will change call volume significantly. We're mostly seeing dramatically increased call volume due to more people being involved in backcountry recreation and less so due to increased comms coverage through cell or satellite devices. While there is the argument that these devices give increased peace of mind tha…
> Subjects needing rescue are still usually hesitant to call for rescue and usually try to self extricate Someone with the knowledge and foresight to bring along a Garmin or PLB or something probably has a decent understanding of what it means to use it - waking people up and deploying expensive assets - and because of that I can see why they'd probably hesitate (it surely would trigger my "I don't want to be a bothe…
From my chats with friends who do SAR, they'd much prefer you use it more casually if its the two way communication kind. SAR volunteers really are a special breed, they're already volunteering to risk their lives to save you and most days don't have incident, so text messages back and forth with the potential for rescue is a bit exciting.
Like, the moment you're sufficiently sure you might be lost or at risk/danger. Then at least they know you're out there and where to start looking from your last known location even if you don't need help yet. They might also be able to trivially guide you for self-rescue instead of the situation escalating into requiring rescue or becoming a much more complex rescue.
But if it's just a simply SOS device, then, well, yeah, it can become a nuisance because that can mean "I'm a bit lost" or "I'm quickly dying" and anything in-between and they have no way of knowing.
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, SAR will "creatively adjust" the incident report when people have health insurance, so that they can bill them for a medical emergency and have their insurance cover it? Sounds like fraud.
SAR doesn't care about whether you have insurance. They simply stick you with a bill if they think you were negligent or the situation shouldn't have happened if there was adequate preparation and/or skill. Then you, the rescued, file a claim with whatever insurance you think is appropriate and make your case. Maybe insurance investigates and looks up the SAR incident report, maybe they don't. Either way SAR isn't pa…
you said this:
> The SAR might be technically "free", but they'll categorize as many things under "medical emergency" as possible and throw the book of fines at you.
And then seemed to imply that's what they did when someone just got lost. Okay they will do it regardless if you have insurance or not, still fraud isn't it?
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#455Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a doctor, the proliferation of apple (and other) watch ECGs has done nothing positive but lead to a massive proliferation of severe health anxiety. Go take a look at /r/askdocs for anyone curious - dozens of apple and Samsung ECG questions, people sure they’re about to die. They have nothing. I remain entirely unconvinced that putting ‘more’ health information at increased temporal frequency to consumers leads to…
How do you reconcile your views on “nothing positive” when there are multiple reported accounts of it leading to early diagnosis events for serious issues?
Can it occasionally do something positive?
Maybe - I am unconvinced, my sister who is a Cardiologist (and so actually deals with this more day to day) certainly has changed her tune from 2-3 years ago to the point where she and the cardiologists she works with see it as a pestilence.
I think the commenter you replied to gives a good reason why. The false positive rate is so high, and the flow on effect to resourcing so great, that I find it hard to say anything positive about what is being presented as a diagnostic miracle. You've got trillion dollar companies behind these devices, that by themselves have annual turnovers for the product in question at the level of small countries' GDPs. You don't think their marketing teams ham it up a bit whenever there's the slightest story that one of their devices was involved in someone that was treated?
here's a nice pop-sci-feel-good article I found within seconds [0]. The first couple are completely unrelated. the A-Fib ones, which are the main ones that apple goes hard at (at least during initial marketing, and which all the promo was focused on) - are basically irrelevant. They sound impressive to the layperson, but AFib is very common, often intermittent in the initial stages (but very rarely causes any harm when intermittent) and very frequently symptomatic when it sets in which leads to presentations, which leads to prompt diagnosis and management.
[0] https://www.imore.com/health-fitness/apple-watch/5-times-an-...
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#456Earlier quoted context omitted.
SAR doesn't care about whether you have insurance. They simply stick you with a bill if they think you were negligent or the situation shouldn't have happened if there was adequate preparation and/or skill. Then you, the rescued, file a claim with whatever insurance you think is appropriate and make your case. Maybe insurance investigates and looks up the SAR incident report, maybe they don't. Either way SAR isn't pa…
you said this: > The SAR might be technically "free", but they'll categorize as many things under "medical emergency" as possible and throw the book of fines at you. And then seemed to imply that's what they did when someone just got lost. Okay they will do it regardless if you have insurance or not, still fraud isn't it?
There's generally a medical component to SAR. If you don't need medical attention or weren't at risk of needing medical attention, what's the rush?
Search is trivial if you're calling in help yourself since just about any device that can call for help will communicate where you are. Gets more complicated for a wide area search called in by someone else though, because that is expensive; but then the target's medical condition is unknown and likely assumed to be for the worst.
If you're completely healthy but in need of rescue eventually, they'll dispatch some better equipped volunteers to retrace your steps and rescue you out of whatever situation you're in.
One time our rope caught on something after we released it, so we couldn't ascend to unstick it, but couldn't descend further without the rope. That would've been a SAR call if there wasn't another group above us that could partially descend on their rope and unstick our rope for us. But it would've been a trivial rescue since we could've reasonably survived stuck on the shaded alcove for a couple days until we got another rope. A ranger or volunteer would've been dispatched to unstick the rope or with their own for us to use, not a helicopter to extract us out.
It's when there's an immediate risk to life, that's what causes urgency, which is the main driver for cost because then typically helicopters are involved. If they itemize by search, rescue, and medical, why wouldn't medical greatly dominate the costs?
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#457Set backcountry search and rescue aside for a second. Seems to me this is for ordinary people doing ordinary things outside cell range, and finding they need help. A family member has a heart attack. A collision with a moose. Who knows what. Less “should’ve brought water and a jacket” and more “we’ve been on route 9 for two hours, a moment ago everything was fine, now he’s not breathing, we have no bars, and we have…
This reminds me of the unfortunate death of CNET reporter, James Kim in 2006. Kim and his family were stranded on a rural route traveling from Portland to San Francisco. He went out in search of help and succumbed to hypothermia. It was unusual, however there are "backcountry" incidents that don't necessarily involve intentionally setting out into remote areas. I suspect, being a tech reporter, Kim would have had a s…
Yeah. That was awful.
It occurs to me that anyone lost in the wilderness, due to reliance on incomplete navigation info, is probably not prepared for adventure.
I might not have thought to bring a satellite-capable Personal Locator Beacon (PLB), but I have my cell phone with me.
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
You might want to change North America to just America. In Canada, SAR is free no matter where you are. Clawing back costs isn't a thing here.
Free as long as you didn't sign an agreement saying you'd be responsible for the cost of SAR. Such as breaking resort rules by going out of bounds[1]. It's really the same as the US (other than our states and cities acting more like corporations), it comes down to who gets dispatched: if it's the government you're fine, but oftentimes if you're near a resort, it comes down to whether dispatch thinks the resort staff,…
Your link doesn’t really support your claim. It was a “fine” from a private resort, that by their own account is entirely unenforceable[1]. Essentially a request for a donation to SAR.
In practise, SAR is free in Canada no matter where you are. There are hundreds and hundreds of SAR calls in BC per year, and not a single person rescued has been required to pay a cent. Many of them do make donations though as a token of thanks.
[1] https://vancouversun.com/news/costs-still-being-tallied-afte...
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#459I recall when Apple announced this feature many commenters here scoffed, saying it was impossible without an external antenna. I don't see those comments here now.
Re: Emergency SOS via satellite
#460Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a quite good writeup with some recommendations: https://www.greenbelly.co/pages/best-personal-locator-beacon... And answers your question: "Each device has a test mode that will communicate with the SARSAT satellite network without sending an alert."
> Each device has a test mode that will communicate with the SARSAT satellite network without sending an alert. That explanation is factually incorrect, then. There currently is no "test" flag, nor is there the required infrastructure to check if your test alert went through: https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency_beacon-testing/ So this "self-test" feature can't be communicating with actual satellites. No idea what i…
Perhaps the emergency communication with satellites is a handshake, and the "test" mode for the beacons simply doesn't complete the handshake?