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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#451

Post by trog »

csdvrx wrote: post #434
kotaKat wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm sitting here shocked at everyone's hate. I took a major leap and bought a Thinkpad X13s, with the same 8cx Gen 3 CPU this thing has. I am beyond impressed at it. Windows 11 on it - while, yes, it's Windows 11 with its own concerns and issues - runs flawlessly. I've been able to run my traditional x86 and x64 workloads - even things like arm64 Tailscale without issues, and I get amazing battery life. I am 10…

I love windows and wanted to give it a try, but the lack of OLED option is bothering me. Can you comment about the battery life and the "traditional x86" workloads? Does it use a just-in-time compilation? (I haven't looked at the details yet) Can you dual boot to a Linux arm64 distribution?

> I love windows and wanted to give it a try, but the lack of OLED option is bothering me.

My Dell XPS15 has an OLED, fwiw. It's a couple years old now but the latest models still have it (if you buy a 4K screen, anyway).

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#452

Post by fomine3 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #46
IceWreck wrote: post #7

I want to install Linux on one of these and use it as a low power consumption home server.

I don't know why you would buy one, even if it were available, unless power-efficiency was a crucial component for a server. Can you imagine what you could get, on eBay, in a small form factor, for $600? I made off with a i3-8100T (about 3/4s as powerful, 35W TDP), with 16GB of RAM, and a 256GB SSD in an ultra-small-form-factor case for less than $150. For $600, it makes absolutely no sense against anything used. Let…

Fair point. But idle power consumption will be like 7W vs 15W.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#453

Post by rodgerd »

MBCook wrote: post #386
jborean93 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can you do about it. Outside of Apple hardware running macOS you just can't get the same. We can demand all we want but no one can offer what is available from Apple yet. I'm certainly not surprised Qualcomm/Intel/AMD want to add more fire to their feet by talking up their competition.

But you have to demand it. People have to make clear to the vendors that this matters . As long people don’t do that everything will continue as normal. It needs to be very clear you’re not doing good enough . As long as reviewers keep ignoring the elephant in the room in their text and scores, how are you ever going to get what I’m guessing just about everyone wants? They may not know it (us Mac users were getting a…

> Qualcomm just doesn’t seem to be trying very hard in the computer segment.

They're functionally a monopoly. They don't have to.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#454

Post by fomine3 »

csydas wrote: post #268
kstrauser wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If MS showed up with a backward compatibility layer as good as Apple’s Rosetta, they’d instantly be a strong competitor. Maybe not for gaming systems or high-end workstations — at least not immediately — but in the huge space of people who want a battery sipping laptop with access to a vast amount of software they’re already using.

I don't think MS needs to push this if they want to succeed, they need to start making a consumer friendly machine that Windows runs fantastically on. For an "acceptable" laptop, the price point is already pretty close to $1000, and before I would have a tentative recommendation of MacBooks/Macbook Airs because of the learning curve of MacOS. With M1/M2 and how much better it is than anything else on the consumer mar…

> Gaming isn't even that much of an issue anymore, so for casual players it's pretty fine.

I don't expect "casual" gamers setup Wine+Proton+MoltenVK. It's better to say that let's play game on PlayStation. If you mean really "casual", they play on iPhone.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#455

Post by MikusR »

tiahura wrote: post #303
indrora wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have no better choice. Name me, today, a desktop class ARM SoC that isn't made by Apple and represents the median performance band of the class. Fundamentally, ARM Holdings is what Antitrust legislation was supposed to break down. They own the "ARM" name and control who can license the ARM IP and most importantly, how . Ampere, the folks behind a lot of ARM servers, are by contract barred from getting into the m…

The architecture license was acquired in 2008. Is there any evidence that anyone has been refused a license to develop a desktop arm cpu?

Qualcomm is currently being sued by ARM for daring to make a core thats faster than the ARM cortex

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#456

Post by DenisM »

my123 wrote: post #429
withinrafael wrote: post #420

This is Microsoft's second go at a developer-focused ARM kit. You may recall the first was called the Snapdragon Developer Kit [1] and was a miserable machine. It appears Microsoft has already pulled it from the Microsoft Store [2]. There is no other supported desktop/CI/etc. solution for Windows on ARM. (Mac mini with Parallels/VMware is a popular unsupported alternative. It may still be your fastest.) Seems like a…

Snapdragon Developer Kit was built with a "cost above all" mandate, $219 target pricing but it just wasn't powerful enough. > There is no other supported desktop/CI/etc. solution for Windows on ARM. (Mac mini with Parallels/VMware is a popular unsupported alternative. It may still be your fastest.) Azure cloud instances are also an option. > but I'm not sure if there's remaining appetite for Windows target-specific d…

> Azure cloud instances are also an option.

I couldn’t find ARM with windows, can you help?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#458

Post by rodgerd »

smoldesu wrote: post #193
VTimofeenko wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arm64 vms seem to be working great. And pretty soon Asahi will get to the point of being completely usable as a daily driver

Why would I buy a Mac Mini for Linux when devices like this exist? The Qualcomm chip is officially supported and much cheaper than buying the Mac. Seems to be much less hassle and better value on the Microsoft side of things.

> Qualcomm

The main reason so many Android devices are throwaway junk is Qualcomm. Don't rely on them for anything that you still want to keep running for more than a couple of years.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#459

Post by naikrovek »

wyldfire wrote: post #422
MBCook wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m out of the Windows ecosystem, except one machine at work. I’d love Windows on ARM to work. I love my M1 and would like something comparable. But Apple had the M1 and the ARM PCs seem to be based on iPhone 7 level chips (perceptually). “You can have Intel or ARM. No one buys ARM so there is little software. Windows was ruined on ARM for a long time. Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because…

> Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because the only ones you can buy are ultra-low spec with terrible components like eMMC storage. It's not clear what you're quoting from. But it's out of date, now. The last generation (or two?) of windows ARM laptops certainly have NVMe storage. And they're not generally cheap (in cost nor components). > MS can’t fix it (without their own chip) and Qualcomm…

> But I kinda doubt Microsoft will start designing their own.

There were job postings a few months back which would indicate you’re wrong, but who knows if those positions were filled, or if the project is still alive internally. We’ll see, I guess.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#460

Post by kcb »

kotaKat wrote: post #336
Joe_Boogz wrote: post #197

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed. If this gains traction then we should start seeing support for windows laptops on ARM. As a dev who prefers windows but has a m1 MacBook b/c of the battery life I really hope this works out.

Yeah, I'm sitting here shocked at everyone's hate. I took a major leap and bought a Thinkpad X13s, with the same 8cx Gen 3 CPU this thing has. I am beyond impressed at it. Windows 11 on it - while, yes, it's Windows 11 with its own concerns and issues - runs flawlessly. I've been able to run my traditional x86 and x64 workloads - even things like arm64 Tailscale without issues, and I get amazing battery life. I am 10…

There's a lot of the "it has less geekbenches than the M1 so it must be a total piece of crap" going on. I have a far less performant 8cx Gen 1 laptop with similar experience to you. It's no workstation but general usage and browsing work as well as you'd expect a modern laptop. With great battery life and total silence.

This thing is basically the most performant ARM soc on the market with a lot of memory, fast storage and good connectivity. Not bad at all for the price. Not to mention there's a good chance this might be the first cost-effective ARM Linux workstation.

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