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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#451
post #425
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not a citizen so don’t enjoy some of the benefits of military protection Can you explain what you mean by this part?

If I was stuck in a war torn country, I don’t get evacuated by the US military.

I think Afghanistan and Ukraine both show that this is not necessarily the case for citizens either.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#452
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes at least when I’m sick or on parental leave it’s not the company paying the parental leave money. The law makes it a requirement for my employer to let me take my parental leave, i.e they can’t refuse or not have my job there when I return. So while that’s a cost to them, of course they don’t pay me my 80% salary when I’m gone 6-12 months. Tax money does. My employer can use my salary money to pay for my replacem…

When I'm on sick leave in Poland, first two weeks are covered by the employer (80%) and only after that it's covered by tax money.

Italy is either two or three days, I can't remember which.

The reason, I believe, is that there are random checks by the health service to ensure people on sick leave are actually sick. But if you only take a day off due to a headache, by the time it gets registered and checked you could have already got better - so your claim is hard to verify.*

A dishonest employer could easily defraud the system by claiming a lot of individual, unverifiable "sick days" and getting the state to pay for a nice chunk of his payroll expenses.

By contrast, an employer gets alerted sooner of an absence and is in a much better position to guess whether an employee claiming fake sicknesses. In case of suspicion they're legally allowed (at a small fee) to have a physician check on their employee from day 1.

* now that I think about it, with everybody having a camera phone nowadays, this might eventually be solved - a video call might not be enough for a diagnosis, but it can probably tell "yep you're sick" with a reasonable degree of confidence?

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>(we get 1 year for 80% pay, first 6 months full pay, then 5 years protection against dismissal) That is just crazy.... I would hate to be a chidless person in your country, I can not image the extra amount of work that get places on people that do not have children... As someone that will never have a child I like the fact that the US does not force this kind of parental leave on employers, I know that will be very…

I will also not have a child and live in an EU country where parents get a lot of paid parental leave. I think it's great. Why wouldn't I want to work alongside happy, less stressed coworkers who aren't constantly _extra_ sleep and energy deprived from worrying about having to unsustainably juggle work and kids? Companies are well aware of the laws and know they need to staff appropriately. In addition, it is a good…

As a person without kids, I'm painfully aware that I'm not (yet) contributing to building the future in which I hope to still be living in, several decades from now.

There are countless things the State spends money on that I resent having to pay taxes for, but childhood and parenting benefits _definitely_ isn't among them. Go nuts.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#454
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a lot of people that want things to be fair at the individual level ("that person gets time off for a child, but that other, childless person works the whole time")... but don't see the greater "benefit to society overall" part of it. It's not necessarily that they're being greedy; it may not even be something that would benefit them directly. They just never consider that they're paying a cost for th…

In some cases it’s probably legitimately “unfair”. Me for example am probably at the more unfair end. I - have high income so pay a large % into taxes - not a citizen so don’t enjoy some of the benefits of military protection - wasn’t raised here so didn’t use any of the earlier year services - likely won’t retire here so won’t use those either Most of my tax dollars goes to fund others in the country. But as a socie…

> likely won’t retire here so won’t use those either

I don't know which country you're living in, but surely the money you paid into a pension scheme - be it public or private - doesn't just disappear because you moved to another country?

Spain is famously full of UK pensioners receiving and spending their pounds there. Heck, my father worked for a few years in Belgium in his youth, without even being a citizen, and that still entitled him to a (minuscule) Belgian pension later on, in addition to his more substantial one from his subsequent decades of work in a different country.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#455
Unpopular opinion: decisions like this hurt European workers. As an employer with 270 full time employees and many more contractors, I simply will not hire people in the EU and especially not in Netherlands because of the legal risks from a government with too many regulations.

An employer should be free to use webcam monitoring (no different than if the employee was in person with a supervisor nearby).

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most US companies behave much better than companies outside the US. That's why Romanians looking to be hired by US companies No. The reason is compensation.

I personally would take better comp over benefits any day.

Higher comp beats "nice to have" benefits, but it doesn't beat a non-shitty work day every day.

I don't know how much you'd have to pay me to accept to be treated like a child or a slave for eight hours a day, but it's going to be a _multiple_ of what a reasonable boss can get me to work for.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#457
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if austria is not appealing for employees, wouldn't that mean that salaries should be higher, to make it more appealing?

Not really, because there are other options around. For a gross salary of 100.000 Euro (which is already high, but not necessarily for software engineers) the employer pays 125.000 Euro, after taxes the employee retains 61.000 Euro. Stock options are generally taxed as income as well. So the general taxation situation and the complexities in doing business (lots of notaries needed, slow processes) make it unappealing…

>For a gross salary of 100.000 Euro (which is already high, but not necessarily for software engineers

Which companies in Austria pay 100.000 Euro salaries?

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised to know that there are workplaces where you don't get "observed by management" which is why people love going there on site. Or that there are jobs where you don't have the choice of WFH so you have to show up to the office whether you like it or not if you want to afford food and rent. Or lack of silence, space, amenities at home, or the multiple other reasons why some people to go to the offi…

You are right in the sense that mechanics, construction workers, medics, cant really work from home. But to say that in tech, which thrives due to remote customers, people must work on site is misguided. People cant afford the “luxuries” you mentioned because they need to be in the proximity of their office. Some are so traumatised by the experience that they cant fathom the notion that it is possible to own a place…

>Those that despite having the space and the option of working form home yet chose onsite are welcome to do so. But i will remind folks that that is unnatural for human beings

So, people not wanting to bring their work inside their homes where they eat, sleep, watch movies, play games, meet friends, have sex and play with their kids is unnatural? Are you gonna tell me next that same sex couples are also unnatural?

I'll tell you what's unnatural: You trying to be the authority on what's unnatural.

Stop trying to enforce your world views on everyone.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>(we get 1 year for 80% pay, first 6 months full pay, then 5 years protection against dismissal) That is just crazy.... I would hate to be a chidless person in your country, I can not image the extra amount of work that get places on people that do not have children... As someone that will never have a child I like the fact that the US does not force this kind of parental leave on employers, I know that will be very…

I will also not have a child and live in an EU country where parents get a lot of paid parental leave. I think it's great. Why wouldn't I want to work alongside happy, less stressed coworkers who aren't constantly _extra_ sleep and energy deprived from worrying about having to unsustainably juggle work and kids? Companies are well aware of the laws and know they need to staff appropriately. In addition, it is a good…

> stressed coworkers who aren't constantly _extra_ sleep and energy deprived

maybe I should have added that the parental leave only applies to the mother. Fathers can just take a month off.

And since women can choose to go back to work after 1 year or even 2 years (at reduced pay until then) the kids can already go to the nursery although it's not free until they're 2.5 years old. Then kindergarten is free

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will also not have a child and live in an EU country where parents get a lot of paid parental leave. I think it's great. Why wouldn't I want to work alongside happy, less stressed coworkers who aren't constantly _extra_ sleep and energy deprived from worrying about having to unsustainably juggle work and kids? Companies are well aware of the laws and know they need to staff appropriately. In addition, it is a good…

> stressed coworkers who aren't constantly _extra_ sleep and energy deprived maybe I should have added that the parental leave only applies to the mother. Fathers can just take a month off. And since women can choose to go back to work after 1 year or even 2 years (at reduced pay until then) the kids can already go to the nursery although it's not free until they're 2.5 years old. Then kindergarten is free

> maybe I should have added that the parental leave only applies to the mother. Fathers can just take a month off.

That's unfortunate. Where I live parental leave is split between both parents (I think it is 480 days total), I think that works better.

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