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US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

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Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#451

Post by randomdata »

gmadsen wrote: post #444
randomdata wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The civil servant representatives may be older, but they don’t hold the power. They are hired by the power to serve the power. Again , we are talking about the power, not those who the power has delegated some work to.

Again? No, you obviously have a different definition of power, one that is abstract and in practicality useless. I'm trying not to be disparaging, but your comment is so absurd that I can't think of any situation where it would be appropriate outside of a college freshman poly sci class.

Please, let your disparagement run free. It allows us to understand that your motivation is to protect your emotional state, not to simply convey information as has been the nature of discussion up to this point. As I have no emotional attachment to the subject, I'm not bothered by it and am able to learn that you are not here in good faith.

Contradictory information is welcome, encouraged even, but I am not sure your criticism, no matter how constructive, is on-topic information. The subject here is pretty well defined. Worrying about what I may have done wrong does not add value to the thread of information here.

Bringing this back to the topic at hand to not derail it further, millennials hold the power. They are largely not concerned with it. Technical understanding to some degree doesn't mean one is an expert in all matters of tech. Security is actually not well understood by most, even those who are involved with tech professionally. As an example, "don't implement your own encryption" is common advice given because we realize that security and related matters is actually really hard to understand and really easy to get wrong.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#452

Post by ysleepy »

JohnFen wrote: post #323
cr555 wrote: post #27

"That's when they can plug in the traveler's phone, tablet or PC to a device that copies their information, ...". would really like to know which "devices" they are talking about. fkn hard to do a full android backup these days.. this world. im tellin ya. on another note: lets talk about how one would go about keeping ones privacy intact aka having a party in the capitol. 1. will they be able to get into my cryptroot…

> fkn hard to do a full android backup these days. No it's not. It's very easy. I do it all the time using adb. > will they be able to get into my cryptrooted pinephone / hdd in those 5 days? They don't need to. They can take a binary image of your encrypted partition(s) and take all the time they want to break into it later. Assuming they're sufficiently motivated.

have you tried restoring your adb backup? Most apps set the backup=false flag in thr android manifest and adb will sput out an empty backup. This is what grandparents meant.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#453

Post by technothrasher »

jonny_eh wrote: post #345
mauvehaus wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BOS got unstaffed camera kiosks some years back, and being the wise-ass I am, I made a funny face for the camera, figuring the picture would end up stored for all eternity on a computer, never having been seen by human eyes. At that point in time, they were still having humans in the loop, and I got a different kind of funny look from the customs or immigration person I spoke to some minutes later. I got a third kind…

Never have fun with border control. Know your audience.

I took a bus many years ago from Rochester, NY to Toronto, ON. As ID for crossing the border, I only had my driver's license, not my passport, as this was allowed at the time. But the border agent was a bit grumpy about it for some reason. He asked if I had a birth certificate, and I thought I'd be cute about it and responded, "Sure, of course I've got one... but not with me! :D" He stared at me dead faced and just said, "Go over there and wait in line J". Line J felt kind of like "The group W bench" from the song Alice's Restaurant. I waited in that line for about 45 minutes for the new border agent to give me a tired look and then wave me through. The rest of the passengers on the bus waiting for me were not amused.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#454

Post by notch656a »

xoa wrote: post #185
throwoutway wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know how successful you are crossing the border and getting home when you tell CBP to “pound sand”. They’ll just deny you entry and you’re left with very little recourse. Effectively they are the judge and jury and you’re stuck in the waiting area if you’re lucky, a holding cell if you’re not If you think you’re immune just because you’re a US citizen, you’re not.

> Let me know how successful you are crossing the border and getting home when you tell CBP to “pound sand”. They’ll just deny you entry and you’re left with very little recourse. How about instead of this handwave-y impossible ask BS you cite any actual cases at all since Lyttle v. US (10 years ago) where the CBP denied a US Citizen entry or deported them? There is plenty of case law here. In Nguyen v. INS the Supre…

If someone's family/connections had the wherewithal and resources to get picked up by the ACLU and go to the federal court once in a decade I wonder how often it actually happens. I was subjected to some abuse by CBP, and found out there were a steady stream of people getting the same treatment ('internal' examination of their body without their consent by a nearby hospital, often without a warrant). The last federal lawsuit is practically a decade old, but I can assure you based on the bragging by CBP officers themselves the shit was happening daily. So a decade old court case doesn't mean it isn't happening more frequently.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#455

Post by throwaway12557 »

This recently happened to me earlier this year. I am a U.S. citizen, coming back to the states from South America. I have not broken any laws nor do I intend to.

I put up a fuss and almost missed my flight, but they took both my laptop and cellphone into a back room with about 5-8 other people on my flight. Made me unlock of course.

Here is the pamphlet they let me take… saved and documented. They take down hardware addresses and more, and would not allow lawyers on the scene or for me to witness their search. Here are all the pages of the pamphlet:

https://imgur.com/a/qNovC83

As a tech worker and privacy advocate for all I was rightfully not thrilled. I still need to buy new hardware, I had no idea this was the case as far as data storage and 15 years but figured they probably upload malware and all that fun stuff. Neat. I have been a citizen my whole life.

Reading through the comments now, I am glad I learned a little. If they pull the stunt again I will happily deny and wait however long and just rebook a flight and maybe hire a lawyer. It’s a gross abuse of power.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#456

Post by toss1 »

notch656a wrote: post #446
toss1 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha — right you are! It has already been tried, both the ages before govt, every time govt fell down, and in the case of San Francisco, just got way too lax. The idea that we can somehow get away without governance (or intelligence ops, or policing) is born completely of very high privilege — it completely assumes that all the things that the govt does just happen automatically. It is just like the idiot new manager w…

Believing government acts on your behalf reeks of 'very high privilege.' If you think shop-keeps won't protect their stores once the chains of SF/Cali government come off, I have a bridge to sell you. Edit: thank you for spelling correction. Wreaks changed to reeks

Of course the shop-keeps will attmpt to protect their stores. That is completely beside the point.

The point is that without a democratic government that is at least attempting to self-govern, the alternative is either a new autocracy comes in (see Russia, CCP, Venezuela, Myanmar, etc.), or it starts with anarchy, and quickly falls to the first crimelord/warlord.

Every one of those options is far worse than a flawed democracy.

Unless, of course, you can point me to the magical stable stateless advanced society where I can go live... (srsly, it'd be great)

And no, believing government acts on your behalf does not "wreaks of 'very high privilege.'". Aside from the fact that the word you want is "reeks" (as in smells bad, not inflicting punishment of vengeance), thinking that an attempt at democratic govt is less bad than being ruled by a crimelord, warlord, or fascist autocrat is not high privilege, it is simply a fact. Being able to live in such a democratic govt is, sadly, a bit of a privilege, as many are not so fortunate.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#457

Post by gmadsen »

randomdata wrote: post #451
gmadsen wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again? No, you obviously have a different definition of power, one that is abstract and in practicality useless. I'm trying not to be disparaging, but your comment is so absurd that I can't think of any situation where it would be appropriate outside of a college freshman poly sci class.

Please, let your disparagement run free. It allows us to understand that your motivation is to protect your emotional state, not to simply convey information as has been the nature of discussion up to this point. As I have no emotional attachment to the subject, I'm not bothered by it and am able to learn that you are not here in good faith. Contradictory information is welcome, encouraged even, but I am not sure you…

Sure, lets start with what I can only assume is your premise, that since millennials are very recently the largest adult demographic , that somehow translates into any current issue being implicit agreement by the millennials?

1. millennials are very very marginally above boomers in % of population, when separating each demographic. https://www.statista.com/statistics/797321/us-population-by-... - this doesn't give millennials majority rule, ie (boomers + gen x ) is larger 2. It is not the case that population numbers are directly proportional to power. Even on paper, this has never been true in the US. It is a democratic republic. A million arguments could be made why this ideal is even barely true. 3. Political power in the US is so far removed from I'm guessing your libertarian? view of politicians. They are not servants of a populace power. It is also not a failing of millennials if politicians are in contradiction with "millennial" belief.

4. The US is not a vaccuum. One trillionaire would have more power than 99.99% of millennials combined. this isn't the french revolution.

I feel like your reply to politicians not being representative of the marginally larger populace of millennials is a moral failing of millennials for not starting a revolution. Which is absurd.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#458

Post by randomdata »

gmadsen wrote: post #457
randomdata wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, let your disparagement run free. It allows us to understand that your motivation is to protect your emotional state, not to simply convey information as has been the nature of discussion up to this point. As I have no emotional attachment to the subject, I'm not bothered by it and am able to learn that you are not here in good faith. Contradictory information is welcome, encouraged even, but I am not sure you…

Sure, lets start with what I can only assume is your premise, that since millennials are very recently the largest adult demographic , that somehow translates into any current issue being implicit agreement by the millennials? 1. millennials are very very marginally above boomers in % of population, when separating each demographic. https://www.statista.com/statistics/797321/us-population-by-... - this doesn't give m…

> Which is absurd.

Indeed, it would be quite illogical to experience feelings over consuming information. There is no inherit emotional experience found within information. The fact that security is hard to understand, even for tech professionals, equating to feeling like there is a moral failing of millennials being implied does not compute. If your feelings won't let you participate in good faith, so be it, but ultimately there is no value in those emotions.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#459

Post by BLKNSLVR »

saiya-jin wrote: post #416
macrolime wrote: post #227

Even if you are a person who will never in your life end up as any kind of person of interest for the government, handing over data in this way could still be quite dangerous. Phones will often contain data that can facilitate theft and fraud if ending up in the wrong hands. If they're able to copy everything, including private data from all apps that could be quite bad. For example many countries now use apps to log…

Why the hell would anybody sane, especially with all knowledge average HN user has about government overreach and greed, hacks, 0days, bugs etc. ever put such a critical item as banking app on their phone? Apple vs Android is irrelevant in this, there is no truly safe mainstream phone in 2022, period. Are people really that lazy? I do manage quite a few financial things but for none of those phone apps is crucial and…

100% agree.

Wth the various stories about what data apps seem able to access despite being totally unrelated to their core function, they appear to be a goldmine for privacy invaders (advertising companies) and scammers, hence why even semi-popular apps are targeted for purchase by unethicals to turn into personal data feeds.

I don't have banking apps on my phone. I don't need to move money immediately in any situation. And I still have more apps on my phone than I'm comfortable with.

It's all a personal choice about risk appetite, but for most people (not really the HN crowd) the risks are downplayed or unknown.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#460

Post by BLKNSLVR »

jlokier wrote: post #441
saiya-jin wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell would anybody sane, especially with all knowledge average HN user has about government overreach and greed, hacks, 0days, bugs etc. ever put such a critical item as banking app on their phone? Apple vs Android is irrelevant in this, there is no truly safe mainstream phone in 2022, period. Are people really that lazy? I do manage quite a few financial things but for none of those phone apps is crucial and…

> ever put such a critical item as banking app on their phone? Laziness has nothing to do with it. Why? Three of my bank accounts cannot be accessed without a phone app, and some of my credit cards will not authorise payments without a phone app. It's not a choice. Two of the bank accounts do have web banking too, i.e. from a desktop browser. But you have to use the phone app to authenticate the browser login! I foun…

Some banks certainly don't help themselves when it comes to security practises they foist on their customers.

My bank supports 2FA, but only via SMS...

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